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Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2895113
03/03/21 08:45 AM
03/03/21 08:45 AM
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Guitar Jones Offline
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Oh and real 47RH transmissions aren't cheap from a salvage yard unless you just get lucky and find one in a pick a part yard. When I did my conversion the cheapest one I found was over $1000 and had 250k miles on it. Since they are two year only units they can be fairly scarce.
Grizzly's V10 idea isn't that bad except that comes with it's own set of problems as the V10 is obsolete and some replacement parts such as, rocker arms, cam sprocket, timing cover (oil pump) are no longer available anywhere and magnum and Viper V10 components don't interchange. So you would be stuck sourcing used parts should the need arise.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2895168
03/03/21 11:46 AM
03/03/21 11:46 AM
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Salem
Grizzly Offline
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I think this may have been covered with GTSdart340's post; staying with your 413 Ray, I think this is your only option:

Big Block to 518 Adapter Package

The "small block" designation is a bit mis-leading, in a 1500 Ram that transmission is factory rated for around 12,000 pounds. I've gone up to 14,100 on my 46RE and it didn't hurt it. My 46RE failed at 240,000 miles.....I have this and other reasons why I despise this transmission, but, I think it's still suitable for your application.

You would have to contact them to see if a lock-up convertor can be used.

The eight speed though.......wow, if one of you Guys pulled that off on a carbureted small/big block, it would be a big game changer in Hot Rodding Mopars. I have an idea how to do it and it's kind of simple. work

30.jpg

Mo' Farts

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Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2895169
03/03/21 11:49 AM
03/03/21 11:49 AM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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You could try to find an SAE#3 bellhousing from a 413 or 361 powered 500-900 series truck. That would open up some Allison options for you but I don't know if that requires an extended crankshaft or if they used a spacer.

Kevin

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Twostick] #2895307
03/03/21 05:50 PM
03/03/21 05:50 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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@Grizzly I stand corrected on the B3500 trans, it was 46RE, with new planets, governor, solenoids etc

I did locate this turnkey 6 speed auto package:
https://www.tciauto.com/6x-six-spee...chrysler-bellhousing-outlaw-shifter.html
Don't click it if you don't want to know the price.
But still less than an Allison.

One guy did swap a ZF 8HP (my sister's RAM 1500 has one - nice) into a 67 Chevelle
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/123590-Zf-8hp70-mated-to-sbc
and programmed the CAN-bus with a Teensy (I do MSP programming as well), but he said he'd rather have gone for the PCS unit if he knew better
https://www.soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/
I'm familiar with the rabbit-holes of DIY microprocessor projects...

Re longetivity,
Engine specs (old SAE gross HP) are:
Dodge 1971/72 V8- 413-1, 4 BBL, 4.188 X 3.75, 7.5 to 1, 265HP @ 4000, 445 fp @ 2400, Sodium Exhaust Valves
So the 10,500lb Travco weighs more than the B3500 which is 5,400 empty (and I load regularly to 8,000), but the 235HP MPI 5.9 probably has >30 more real net HP.
The RAM probably makes more peak stress on the trans when loaded and climbing the same hills here, but the 413 can and does run WOT for 10-20 minutes without complaining - that's where I see the real "stress" on a MH trans coming from; any built trans that can "handle" (so they say) 500+HP for 10-20 seconds might overheat and burn after 10 minutes. This is also why I wonder when I see Travco group people putting an LS-1 or Hemi in Travcos (and they do!).
It's also why I think mods like the torrington thrust bearing, low-slip or lock TC etc would also help the MH application, even though I have a square foot trans cooler in front.
The triple-clutch TCs would likely be a good option, but add almost $1k.

It's now looking more like finding a 46RH, billet TC and adapter, built up like
https://www.transdepot.net/46RH-47RH-Stage-2-Transmission-89-95_p_847.html
might be the only option under $7k (for the TCI).

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2895320
03/03/21 06:32 PM
03/03/21 06:32 PM
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Atlanta, GA
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Ray it isn't peak hp that you look at for trans application, it is peak torque output which the 413 has in spades above the 5.9.We need @transman to chime in if he is around about the best way to modify one of the 46rh's to live in our application. No way am I spending 7k on a trans build. That said I am capable of building it myself so it will just be parts expense for me.

Last edited by mgoblue9798; 03/03/21 06:33 PM.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2895357
03/03/21 07:34 PM
03/03/21 07:34 PM
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Guitar Jones Offline
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It's not the trans where I see the problem but the torque converter. The lockup would build less heat than the non lockup but I'm concerned about how much the converter and lockup clutch would take in that smaller size.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2895470
03/04/21 12:46 AM
03/04/21 12:46 AM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
It's not the trans where I see the problem but the torque converter. The lockup would build less heat than the non lockup but I'm concerned about how much the converter and lockup clutch would take in that smaller size.


These guys claim 600-1000HP for their $1k 46RH TCs
http://www.torqueconvertershop.com/torque_converter_904_727_518_46r.htm
remains to be seen if they warrantee them for RV use.

I may have been wrong about the exorbitant price of Allisons, pricey still
https://www.bullripper.com/HEAVY-DUTY-ALLISON-LCT1000-p/t13.htm

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2895472
03/04/21 12:47 AM
03/04/21 12:47 AM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Ray it isn't peak hp that you look at for trans application, it is peak torque output which the 413 has in spades above the 5.9.We need @transman to chime in if he is around about the best way to modify one of the 46rh's to live in our application. No way am I spending 7k on a trans build. That said I am capable of building it myself so it will just be parts expense for me.



PATC sells kits if you're inclined - which one would be good to get experience chiming in.
https://transmissioncenter.net/product-category/dodge/?product-category=level-3-46re-46rh-518,level-2-47re-47rh-618,level-2-48re-dodge

None of those build shops have 46/47RH cores, so need to source a wreck.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2895475
03/04/21 12:56 AM
03/04/21 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Ray it isn't peak hp that you look at for trans application, it is peak torque output which the 413 has in spades above the 5.9.We need @transman to chime in if he is around about the best way to modify one of the 46rh's to live in our application.


you might be interested in my trans bookmarks so far:
https://www.transdepot.net/46RH-47RH-48RH-Dodge-Stage-1-Transmission-89-95_p_138.html
https://transmissioncenter.net/shop...50-th400-700r4-and-200-4r-transmissions/
http://www.wilcap.com/mopar.html
https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/transmission/transmission-packages/th700r4-package/
https://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/showthread.php?4936-turbo-400-swap
https://www.theturboforums.com/threads/518-trans-on-a-big-block.352565/#post-1698520
http://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/productdetail.asp?p=3069402164
https://transmissioncenter.net/product-category/dodge/?product-category=level-2-47re-47rh-618,level-2-48re-dodge
https://www.hgmelectronics.com/comp...rque-converter-lock-up-kit-for-chrysler/
https://www.bullripper.com/HEAVY-DUTY-A618-p/b37.htm
https://www.tranzactracing.com/new-index
https://www.alligatorperformance.com/ats-3069202164-47-rh-transmission-94-95-dodge-5-9l-cummins-2wd
http://www.sd-concepts.com/pages/cfHome.cfm
https://smrtrans.tripod.com/transmissionfeatures/
https://www.coperacingtrans.com/?product=crt-518-hd-1-transmission
https://www.soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/
https://htg-tuning.com/
http://www.jvxracing.com/jvxcatalog.pdf
http://www.phoenixtrans.com/chrysler-transmissions/
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/140863/all/727-to-a518-swap.html
http://www.tranztech.net/
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hup-15lfuel/applications
http://www.hughesperformance.com/xtm-xfm/
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/35994.html
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=84774.0
https://smrtrans.tripod.com/smrtransmissionsintro/id9.html
http://stores.hi-potek.com/hipotek-...r-dodge-jeep-518-and-46re-transmissions/
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/123590-Zf-8hp70-mated-to-sbc
https://www.soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/
https://www.tciauto.com/6x-six-spee...chrysler-bellhousing-outlaw-shifter.html
http://www.torqueconvertershop.com/torque_converter_904_727_518_46r.htm

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2895553
03/04/21 11:11 AM
03/04/21 11:11 AM
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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Thanks for the info. I will add another. Cascade transmission machines 48RE internals- 6 pinion steel planet gears, increased capacity clutch packs, etc to fit the regular 46rh. Parts they have allow for up to 10 clutches in the OD unit. I think you can buy entire already assembled overdrive units from them, and the rest is basically like building a 727.

https://www.cascadetransmissionparts.com/

Last edited by mgoblue9798; 03/04/21 11:16 AM.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2895625
03/04/21 01:15 PM
03/04/21 01:15 PM
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Guitar Jones Offline
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I think 10 clutches in the direct portion of the overdrive unit is normal or 22(?) of the one sided discs. Extra clutches for the actual overdrive would be awesome. These would be the ones you see when you pull the overdrive unit off the trans.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2895777
03/04/21 06:48 PM
03/04/21 06:48 PM
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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I know PATC sells a 7 clutch/steel/pressure plate kit for that overdrive brake set of clutches. What is your opinion of red eagle clutches and kolene steels?

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2895927
03/05/21 07:23 AM
03/05/21 07:23 AM
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Guitar Jones Offline
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
I know PATC sells a 7 clutch/steel/pressure plate kit for that overdrive brake set of clutches. What is your opinion of red eagle clutches and kolene steels?

I have never used them, the stock stuff has always worked fine for me. What I would recommend to anyone building a trans for heavy duty use is billet servos for both bands. If you look in the transmission for sale section here mrrandyj sells very nice billet servos. The thicker kickdown band strut sold by many places is also a good upgrade.


"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"


'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon!
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2895999
03/05/21 11:34 AM
03/05/21 11:34 AM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Thanks for the info. I will add another. Cascade transmission machines 48RE internals- 6 pinion steel planet gears, increased capacity clutch packs, etc to fit the regular 46rh. Parts they have allow for up to 10 clutches in the OD unit. I think you can buy entire already assembled overdrive units from them, and the rest is basically like building a 727.

https://www.cascadetransmissionparts.com/



So it looks like it is a great source for those parts, combined with one of the billet TC suppliers it would make a good kit.
I've built 3 manuals, but never even considered a complete auto tear-down - one thing I have not done is look for a local (So Cal) guy/shop to do a build from parts...

Completely un-ironically, my 97 RAM just threw a P0740 code, so I need to have the TC clutch system looked at. Ugg.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2896009
03/05/21 11:56 AM
03/05/21 11:56 AM
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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If you are having issues with the lock up in the converter, i would try this additive before replacing it. This is similar to the sure grip additive in that it stops the clutch from chattering when engaged. I have used it with great results in numerous trans in lots of different makes including the 46rh/e.

https://www.amazon.com/Lubegard-196...qid=1614958765&s=software&sr=1-2

There also is a newer clutch material raysbestos makes for our overdrive units


The red eagle stuff I asked about earlier is a thinner material combined with thinner steels that allows more clutches in the same drum. The raysbestos frictions are just a different material with increase grab and might be a better choice. Not sure and welcome any input.


https://www.raybestospowertrain.com/friction-clutch-packs/rtk-4803


For sure servos, shift kit including sonnex fix that allows oiling in park, and widest bands available are agiven for me. Also updating to the borg warner solenoid as well.

https://www.fivestartransmissionpar...-governor-pressure-solenoid-borg-warner/

There are some really good youtube vids on the rebuild.I have not done a 46rh, but have build numerous 727s in the past. Basically the same save for the overdrive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrZxEp9ZgXY












Last edited by mgoblue9798; 03/05/21 12:06 PM.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2896053
03/05/21 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
If you are having issues with the lock up in the converter, i would try this additive before replacing it. This is similar to the sure grip additive in that it stops the clutch from chattering when engaged. I have used it with great results in numerous trans in lots of different makes including the 46rh/e.

https://www.amazon.com/Lubegard-196...qid=1614958765&s=software&sr=1-2


Awesome - thanks for the link.
It was idling funny/low occasionally last 2 weeks almost like a clutch was dragging, the the van has 200K on the OEM engine and 120k on the built trans, so I never know what to expect.
I'm sure the timing chain is loose as a goose, although compression is still good.
I don't have a problem adjusting bands and replacing stuff inside the pan, but beyond that is not worth learning for me.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2896139
03/05/21 04:40 PM
03/05/21 04:40 PM
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mgoblue9798 Offline
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put one tube in and drive it for 100 miles,may have to add a second for it to work

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2896167
03/05/21 06:28 PM
03/05/21 06:28 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
put one tube in and drive it for 100 miles,may have to add a second for it to work


bought.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Guitar Jones] #2896170
03/05/21 06:36 PM
03/05/21 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Guitar Jones
The converter also protrudes from the face of the bellhousing about an inch or so when fully seated vs the 1/2" the converter is recessed into the face of the bellhousing on gas versions and non lockup diesel versions. It's not because the bell is cut back, it's because the converter is thicker to accommodate larger, heavier duty components.
You could cut the bell off a 46 or 47 and use an Ultra Bell for a 727 to B/RB pattern or an adapter for the 46 gas engine trans but you are still stuck with the smaller and narrower converter.


I was just buying other stuff and saw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-to-...-Ram-Cummins-Diesel-12v-24v/233911930079
So, the Cummins has its own adapter to handle the deeper 47* TC?
Could THAT be then adapted to the 413/440, ie stack them? The starter may or may not have clearance of course.

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Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Grizzly] #2896171
03/05/21 06:38 PM
03/05/21 06:38 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Grizzly

The eight speed though.......wow, if one of you Guys pulled that off on a carbureted small/big block, it would be a big game changer in Hot Rodding Mopars. I have an idea how to do it and it's kind of simple. work



In case you missed this:
One guy did swap a ZF 8HP into a 67 Chevelle
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/123590-Zf-8hp70-mated-to-sbc
and programmed the CAN-bus with a Teensy (I do MSP programming as well), but he said he'd rather have gone for the PCS unit if he knew better
https://www.soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/

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