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Power Master 7108 Alternator #2893094
02/25/21 04:41 PM
02/25/21 04:41 PM
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South San Francisco, Ca
70sixpkrt Offline OP
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I want to use the Power Master 7018 alternator which is 95 amp. I did change my engine wire harness to a M & H harness about 20 years ago. Would I have any problems using this Alternator? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-7018


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Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2893108
02/25/21 05:20 PM
02/25/21 05:20 PM
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With the smaller wires,bulkhead issues and ammeter I would be concerned.

Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: NITROUSN] #2896068
03/05/21 02:04 PM
03/05/21 02:04 PM
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albany ny
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only an issue if you are using a bunch of amps over the stock 40 or so


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Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2896274
03/05/21 10:21 PM
03/05/21 10:21 PM
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Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
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Originally Posted by 70sixpkrt
I want to use the Power Master 7018 alternator which is 95 amp. I did change my engine wire harness to a M & H harness about 20 years ago. Would I have any problems using this Alternator? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-7018




I'm running the PowerMaster 7019 (same spec as the 7018 except double pulley model) on my 70 Charger 440/6, my Charger is wired front to back/inside and out with M&H repro wire harnesses, ZERO issues with Charging/wiring or the alternator, it's been on there since 2004 when I restored the car, tons of miles racing, street/highway, Hot Rod PowerTours and other cross country events....

Mike

Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: DAYCLONA] #2896284
03/05/21 10:42 PM
03/05/21 10:42 PM
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70sixpkrt Offline OP
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Thanks. I just ordered the 7018. My wiring harness under the dash is original and the engine harness is M&H.


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4-speed
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Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2896356
03/06/21 05:36 AM
03/06/21 05:36 AM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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This has been talked many times.

With a better and powerfull alt the ammeter will be safer than with the stock one. Bulkhead paths will be also more relaxed HOWEVER is better to get AT LEAST one extra path between alt and ammeter out of the bulkhead. BUT NOT BECAUSE THE ALTERNATOR EXTRA POWER, but just because the normal load the car sucks out is right on the borderline the packard terminals are able to hold up. Packard terminals are able to hold certain load peaks, but being constant maybe just 30 amps. As soon you turn on headlights, heater or AC blower and maybe wipers if is raining, you are already on the 25-30 amps rate. Even worst if you give brakes and geared, with reduced rpms and the extra brake lights load.

At this stage, your ammeter could be getting 0 reading with the brand new alternator and this is because battery won't be required for sourcing, but loads are still running between alternator and main splice into the cab


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2896594
03/06/21 09:24 PM
03/06/21 09:24 PM
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Omaha Ne
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Originally Posted by NachoRT74
This has been talked many times.

With a better and powerfull alt the ammeter will be safer than with the stock one. Bulkhead paths will be also more relaxed HOWEVER is better to get AT LEAST one extra path between alt and ammeter out of the bulkhead. BUT NOT BECAUSE THE ALTERNATOR EXTRA POWER, but just because the normal load the car sucks out is right on the borderline the packard terminals are able to hold up. Packard terminals are able to hold certain load peaks, but being constant maybe just 30 amps. As soon you turn on headlights, heater or AC blower and maybe wipers if is raining, you are already on the 25-30 amps rate. Even worst if you give brakes and geared, with reduced rpms and the extra brake lights load.

At this stage, your ammeter could be getting 0 reading with the brand new alternator and this is because battery won't be required for sourcing, but loads are still running between alternator and main splice into the cab


Nacho, I respect your opinions and input. But people may misinterpret your above comments thinking it's OK to put a higher amp unit on while not paying attention to your other suggestions.

Many years ago, a friends grandparents were driving from Iowa to Ca.. It was a 66 Dart 4 door 6 stick. They lost the alternator somewhere in Nevada. The garage replaced it with a much higher output unit. The next time they stopped for gas everything was dead except the horn.
They found that the car would start by jump starting it (rolling and pop the clutch). What I found was that the ammeter was roasted and jump starting would back feed from the other side of the ammeter. Everything would also function if I ran a jumper wire from the battery to the coil or starter relay etc.
I have always assumed that the 65A (?) alternator put too much current through the Ammeter and fused it. The stock Dart Alternator was only 35A as I recall. I installed a aftermarket unit under the dash and away they went.
With your above commentary I was curious as to what your though would be on the above experience.
I believe that one should always err on the side of caution and and will not install a higher output alternator without upgrading the wiring and or bypassing the ammeter. Keeping in mind as a shop owner, if the car has an electrical problem the liability is not something that I want to encounter.
Your thoughts ? beer

Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: TJP] #2896629
03/06/21 10:59 PM
03/06/21 10:59 PM
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Quote
Many years ago, a friends grandparents were driving from Iowa to Ca.. It was a 66 Dart 4 door 6 stick. They lost the alternator somewhere in Nevada. The garage replaced it with a much higher output unit. The next time they stopped for gas everything was dead except the horn.
They found that the car would start by jump starting it (rolling and pop the clutch). What I found was that the ammeter was roasted and jump starting would back feed from the other side of the ammeter. Everything would also function if I ran a jumper wire from the battery to the coil or starter relay etc.
I have always assumed that the 65A (?) alternator put too much current through the Ammeter and fused it. The stock Dart Alternator was only 35A as I recall. I installed a aftermarket unit under the dash and away they went.
With your above commentary I was curious as to what your though would be on the above experience.
I believe that one should always err on the side of caution and and will not install a higher output alternator without upgrading the wiring and or bypassing the ammeter. Keeping in mind as a shop owner, if the car has an electrical problem the liability is not something that I want to encounter.


I agree. The stock system is 40 amps at best. The bulkhead and ammeter are the weak links. The whole system is about 12 gauge wire plus an ammeter in the circuit. The ammeter itself is not so weak it is everything related to it resistance wise. Will it work with a bigger alternator? When smoke gets in your eyes.

Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: NITROUSN] #2896665
03/07/21 05:17 AM
03/07/21 05:17 AM
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Valencia, España
NachoRT74 Offline
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Sure I have to say whay it happened that on that experience.

as soon the alt died the battery was the source to source everything on the car. You got an ammeter reading discharge constantly. Maybe allmost died too.

The ammeter sense whatever it comes or goes to/from the batt, but not what the alt source to the rest of the car, is just related to the batt. This increased the load alt was sourcing, not just to feed the car but also to recharge the batt. So with a powerfull alt you were able to source not just what the car sucks ( lets say 30-35 amps average ) but also 20-30 amps to the batt depending on the batt load stage and engine speed. This makes 50-65 amps total

the 60-65 amps runs throught the bulkhead on black wire... gets the splice down the harness and spreads the regular car loads ( 30-35 if... at night for example ), and the battery keeps sucking 20 30 amps load IF the alt is able to give those... tipically giving throttle.

This constant load running through the ammeter for long time periods is what makes to get some heat at ammeter specially if loosen and rusted terminals. The red wire running between ammeter and batt will get just the 20-30 amps load through the bulkhead. Just right at the packard terminals borderline but still able to hold that. This is the reason why we find more black wire paths melted than red wire paths melted. Or bigger damages on Black wire path than in red wire path.

But the main reason to that experience is keep running a higher amp alts with a discharged batt. The correct procedure was to recharge the batt first and keep going. Maybe not completelly, but at least partially charged.

So... on the right scenario when the batt must be fully charged or barelly discharged, the battery will barelly claim for charge, the alternator will barelly source what the car needs. No matter if 60 amps alt or 600 amps alt. The amperes are not pushed in but sucked out by the devices. Is the same with your battery which is maybe 700 amps load reserve. It will light on your cluster pilot light the same than feed the starter motor and the pilot light on cluster or related wiring don't burn because the battery capacity. The light just sucks out what it needs to work ( maybe 0.25 amps ? ), same than the starter motor ( maybe 120 amps ? ) both on same batt.... .It happens the same with the alt.


With a fully charged batt, the ammeter won't get any load going throught as far the alt is able to feed everything at any speed. No load going through ammeter no heat posibility. And if your car sucks a constant 30-35 amps load rate, then the most important path to keep upgraded is the black wire between amm and alt to keep sourcing the main splice on hat side of the ammeter. As soon you get a good alt, the battery will be NEVER requested to provide the alternator unefficiency.

If you are on a critical point where on the road your batt died, need to fix/replace the alt and don't have the chance to charge fully or partially the batt, the best you can make is, use your car increasing loads ( lights on, A/C heater on ) to keep the extra load the alt will source being spreading up before the ammeter. This will limite the load running thought the ammeter then to the batt, and will keep safe the ammeter and the wiring up to the batt. OR... run a temporaly jumper wire between alt and batt if you have the chance.

At the end, the deal on this is keep the batt out of the game as much as posible, and this is just reached with a powerfull alt able to feed everything at any speed. The more ouput able to provide, the safer all the charging system. The load will kept just on the alt side and won't run thorught the ammeter.

AMMETER IS A BATTERY GAUGE, NOT AN ALTERNATOR GAUGE! the ammeter reads charge and discharge, and the alt is not an accumulator, so it doesn't discharge, just charges or not! Since the alt doesn't get disharge, just by definition the ammeter can't be an alt gauge.


Our cars are a constant and very well known load suckers. On regular operation, will suck maybe 15 amps. Add maybe 8-10 amps with lights on. Add 5 amps when give brakes and 8-10 amps more when wipers are on. Add 8-12 amps A/C-Heater blower depending on speed. You can control those variables, but you can't control the battery load suck when gets discharged. So, all we need is get an alt able to give the better output to feed those devices when working at the slower engine speed as posible to keep the batt out of the game. This is only achieved with a powerfull alt. IMHO, an alt able to give 60-65 amps at iddle is a nice rate. If you get an alt able to give 45-50 amps ( 80s stock alts ) at iddle will work too because will reduce the batt load request and is WAY better than the stock 60s and 70s alts which are at 20-25 amps rate at iddle


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2896666
03/07/21 05:44 AM
03/07/21 05:44 AM
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Note I'M NOT SAYING the red wire thourght the bulkhead must not be upgraded or bypassed, but just saying AT LEAST the black wire.

In any stage the ammeter will be safer with a powerfull alt, more than you think!!!! no need to bypass the ammeter. Remember the ammeter just will read what battery sucks or provides and the load CAN'T BE PUSHED IN. No matter if you get a 500 amps alt, the battery will suck just the load requires to be charged back and the chemicals into the batt takes its own time. It won't suck ever 50 amps to be recharged, just wil take 20-30 amps for longer time... being reduced along the time. Will begin maybe sucking 30 amps... then after 5-10 minutes will decrease to 20 amps and will be there for 25-30 minutes, then will be on 5-10 amps for 2 or 3 hours. Everything depending on the batt capacity.

I must say I have experienced this for 15 years on my own car. I have gotten my own batt died once by accident so the readings I'm telling you is what I have got on my own experiences. I'm running this alt on pics ( with a smaller pulley to increase iddle capacity ) and as you know I have exposed many diagrams to upgrade the charging system still safelly with the stock ammeter.

With this alt I have beeng able to get an ammeter reading allmost steady at ZERO reading with just a bit of flickering when turning or hazzards on with regular driving i know the pulley decal says 100 amps but I seriously doub it, since at nights I can't set my A/C blower at higher speed without a noticeable discharge reading, maybe 5 amps ( I have halogens headlights which increases load demand ). Maybe is 100 amps as max output, but closer to 50 amps at iddle than to 60 amps


Master technicians book also says...!!!




IMG_1716a.JPGIMG_1714a.JPGammeter-zero-master-tech1960-png.png

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2896668
03/07/21 06:33 AM
03/07/21 06:33 AM
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Oh and also must say! NOTHING must be sourced from batt post or starter relay with ammeter being operational. This increases the load through ammeter like it was getting charged!

BTW, Dayclona said installed same alt ( with pulley difference ) on his fully rebuilt car with new wiring and is working great, zero issues. He didn't said ammeter bypassed or wiring upgraded with bigger or better paths. Why or how my words could be taken wrong ( and Dayclona's words not ) if I'm saying to upgrade AT LEAST the alt path in a parallel path to the existant one?


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2896964
03/08/21 01:00 AM
03/08/21 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by NachoRT74
Oh and also must say! NOTHING must be sourced from batt post or starter relay with ammeter being operational. This increases the load through ammeter like it was getting charged!

BTW, Dayclona said installed same alt ( with pulley difference ) on his fully rebuilt car with new wiring and is working great, zero issues. He didn't said ammeter bypassed or wiring upgraded with bigger or better paths. Why or how my words could be taken wrong ( and Dayclona's words not ) if I'm saying to upgrade AT LEAST the alt path in a parallel path to the existant one?





FYI, my 70 Charger's complete wiring system was replaced with M&H repro harnesses, every harness they offered at the time in 2004, the steering column harness was replaced with an NOS harness, the dash harness is M&H, the gauges I went thru myself, paying particular attention to insulating the stock ammeter terminals with modern phenolic insulating material rather than the stock "paper" like insulators used on the terminals, the only original vintage harness in the car is the power window harness converted with a relay set up and a modern self resetting circuit breaker ....as I stated above I've been running the PowerMaster 7019, the double pulley diameter is about the same as the single PM 7018, as is the 90-95 amp rating, I also have a PM 7018 on my Challenger T/A that runs all the original wiring with the only mod being a vintage Direct Connection trunk mount battery set up, that alt has been on my T/A for about 20 years, again with ZERO issues.....

MikeG

Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: DAYCLONA] #2896985
03/08/21 03:57 AM
03/08/21 03:57 AM
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Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: NachoRT74] #2897265
03/08/21 10:59 PM
03/08/21 10:59 PM
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I’d install a shunt to the starter relay and also bypass the amp meter if I were running that alt. Running a wire to eliminate the bulkhead connector and just having a clean run inside the cabin would also be a good idea, but I’ve had success with just doing the first two in the past.


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Re: Power Master 7108 Alternator [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2902358
03/24/21 12:38 PM
03/24/21 12:38 PM
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PINE VALLEY
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RE this thread, what can I replace my M400 motorhome's 413 OEM alternator with as a direct bolt-on?
I recall it being 37A unit.
No bulkhead connectors on the MH chassis, but probably still desirable to upgrade or parallel wire the black side to the gauge?







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