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Home electrical panel upgrade #2890871
02/20/21 08:25 AM
02/20/21 08:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,021
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline OP
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Bad340fish  Offline OP
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Tulsa OK
When I moved into my house(built in 71) almost 12 years ago they informed me during the inspection that my panel was double tapped and needed to be upgraded. With the recent weather events and my desire for a generator and transfer switch I figure it is time to go ahead and replace the panel.

Any recommendations on brands or type of breakers? I have a friend who is a very good electrician but he has been out of the residential field for several years now maintaining equipment at a manufacturing facility. So if anything new or better has come on the market he hasn't seen it.

I need to get a larger panel, to remove the double tapped connections and I need to add some stuff to my garage I have been slumming it with two outlets for way too long lol.

So I want a transfer switch, whole home surge protection and to add a larger panel to cover extra garage outlets and add a 220V in the garage.

Any recommendations or advice? Like anything else I don't want to buy the cheapest crap but want a good value.

One of the things that makes me most excited for this is to be able to put the proper labels on everything. I swear they marked this panel then went and switched it with the neighbors or something. The only things labeled right are the 220V breakers. Everything else involves me and the wife yelling back and forth if things turned off or not argue


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Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: Bad340fish] #2890888
02/20/21 09:53 AM
02/20/21 09:53 AM
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Posts: 4,764
Holland MI Ottawa
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2boltmain Offline
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Im not an electrician but I did just wire my garage and it passed the township inspection. Square D is a band that's been around a long time. They have 2 lines. The very affordable "Homeline" is their residential line up. The "QO" is their commercial grade line and does cost more. You will find all the home improvement stores carry these lines along with the other brands. The brands offer a great deal on a box with several breakers included to get you started. I went with this unit in my new detached garage.
https://www.farmandfleet.com/products/g--7899-square-d-load-center-circuit-breaker.html


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Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: 2boltmain] #2890895
02/20/21 10:06 AM
02/20/21 10:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,638
PA
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70Duster Offline
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PA
I used the same box as 2boltmain did also in a detached garage, at a rental property. Seems to be a quality box at an affordable price.

Last edited by 70Duster; 02/20/21 10:07 AM.
Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: 2boltmain] #2890902
02/20/21 10:23 AM
02/20/21 10:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,861
Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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Stanton  Offline
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When wiring the shop the best way (in my opinion) is to run a large (#6) cable into the shop to a seperate smaller panel. Then run all your shop wiring off of that.
This has a lot of advamtages. This will save you a lot of wire going from the house panel to the shop. It makes adding shop circuits easier in the future. It puts a main shutoff in the shop and It puts all the breakers closer should you blow one while working. And don't think you need big amps in the shop either. A 60 amp panel is plenty to run a decent size shop with compressor, welder, etc.. Keep in mind you'l never have everything running at once. I have a 60amp panel in my shop - I've run my 220v welder, my 5 horse compressor and had the a/c running all at the same time and never blew a breaker. Of course all the big stuff is on its own circuit. And those three things have the biggest draw. A lot of people go crazy on house panels too. A 200amp panel is a waste of money. A 100amp panel is fine for pretty much any home, just buy a panel with a sufficient number of breaker slots. GFI protection ... personally I'd rather have GFI receptacles instead of breakers. This way you don't have to go to the panel to reset them.

Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: Stanton] #2890929
02/20/21 11:10 AM
02/20/21 11:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
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North Dakota
Originally Posted by Stanton
When wiring the shop the best way (in my opinion) is to run a large (#6) cable into the shop to a seperate smaller panel. Then run all your shop wiring off of that.
This has a lot of advamtages. This will save you a lot of wire going from the house panel to the shop. It makes adding shop circuits easier in the future. It puts a main shutoff in the shop and It puts all the breakers closer should you blow one while working. And don't think you need big amps in the shop either. A 60 amp panel is plenty to run a decent size shop with compressor, welder, etc.. Keep in mind you'l never have everything running at once. I have a 60amp panel in my shop - I've run my 220v welder, my 5 horse compressor and had the a/c running all at the same time and never blew a breaker. Of course all the big stuff is on its own circuit. And those three things have the biggest draw. A lot of people go crazy on house panels too. A 200amp panel is a waste of money. A 100amp panel is fine for pretty much any home, just buy a panel with a sufficient number of breaker slots. GFI protection ... personally I'd rather have GFI receptacles instead of breakers. This way you don't have to go to the panel to reset them.



The determining factor is the utility service. You can't safely replace a 100 amp service with a 200 amp service if the utility feed is sized for 100 amps. I have a 200 amp service in our house and frankly I'm glad we do. When I built our home garage I installed a 60 amp subpanel in the garage fed from the main panel. When I added our addition, I installed another 60 amp subpanel for it fed again from the main panel. As to brands, You have Siemens that services legacy brands like ITE, Sylvania, Murray, and Gould to name a few along with their current products. Then there is Square D. These are probably the top two. Square D is probably more available from a number of sources and would be my pick.


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: 6PakBee] #2890957
02/20/21 12:10 PM
02/20/21 12:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,142
Canada -- Posts: 4034 -Registe...
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5thAve Offline
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Canada -- Posts: 4034 -Registe...
There aren't that many panel manufacturers. Square D and Cutler Hammer/Eaton are the two big ones and worth getting. I never liked Siemens panels.
You should figure out how many circuits you need before you replace it. I'd get an electrician to do it since it wouldn't cost too much and they might have their own preferences based on what they've seen and used. The extra expense of a commercial panel isn't worth it for residential.

Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: 5thAve] #2890994
02/20/21 01:03 PM
02/20/21 01:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220
West Plains, MO
DrCharles Offline
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West Plains, MO
I've always spent the modest extra money for Square D's QO commercial line up It's small compared to the overall cost of the shop and contents!

I put a 100 amp panel in my shop building... plenty of power-hungry accessories besides the lighting, including a big 240 volt air compressor, welder (Lincoln stick, and Hobart MIG), and now a 4-post lift. Maybe overkill but I don't want nuisance tripping in hot weather, or wondering if I have the capacity to install something else.

Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: DrCharles] #2891199
02/20/21 08:35 PM
02/20/21 08:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,861
Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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Stanton  Offline
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Ontario, Canada
Quote
When I built our home garage I installed a 60 amp subpanel in the garage fed from the main panel. When I added our addition, I installed another 60 amp subpanel for it fed again from the main panel.


Just because you're running a couple 60 amp subpanels does not mean you need a larger main panel. To run a 60 amp sub you need a 60 amp breaker in the main. In the average. I the current 100 amp panel I have I could potentially install twelve 60 amp subpanels. As long as the total draw on any of those subs doesn't exceed 60 amps the breaker won't blow and subsequently as long as the total draw of all circuits doesn't exceed 100 amps the main will never blow. In general, a 200 amp service is pissing money away.

Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: Stanton] #2891274
02/21/21 12:21 AM
02/21/21 12:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
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Mass
Originally Posted by Stanton
[quote] a 200 amp service is pissing money away.



If your going "by the book," (permits/inspection) a 200 amp panel is the requirement in some State codes

Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: Stanton] #2891335
02/21/21 09:49 AM
02/21/21 09:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
I Live Here
6PakBee  Offline
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Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
Originally Posted by Stanton
Quote
When I built our home garage I installed a 60 amp subpanel in the garage fed from the main panel. When I added our addition, I installed another 60 amp subpanel for it fed again from the main panel.


Just because you're running a couple 60 amp subpanels does not mean you need a larger main panel. To run a 60 amp sub you need a 60 amp breaker in the main. In the average. I the current 100 amp panel I have I could potentially install twelve 60 amp subpanels. As long as the total draw on any of those subs doesn't exceed 60 amps the breaker won't blow and subsequently as long as the total draw of all circuits doesn't exceed 100 amps the main will never blow. In general, a 200 amp service is pissing money away.


This is one of those things that just because you can doesn't mean you should. If you go through the procedures in Article 220 of the NEC rigorously, you'll find out if you need a 100, 200, 225, or larger service entrance to meet code. So yes, if the calculations support installing twelve 60 amp branch circuits in a 100 amp service panel, you are golden. If not, at least around here, the electrical inspector will not sign off on the installation. shruggy


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Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: 6PakBee] #2891346
02/21/21 10:17 AM
02/21/21 10:17 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,861
Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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Stanton  Offline
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Quote
So yes, if the calculations support installing twelve 60 amp branch circuits in a 100 amp service panel


That was hypothetical ! My point being don't just go for a 200 amp panel "'cause bigger must be better".

Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: Stanton] #2891409
02/21/21 11:55 AM
02/21/21 11:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
I Live Here
6PakBee  Offline
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North Dakota
Originally Posted by Stanton
Quote
So yes, if the calculations support installing twelve 60 amp branch circuits in a 100 amp service panel


That was hypothetical ! My point being don't just go for a 200 amp panel "'cause bigger must be better".



Oh, I absolutely agree. Margin is a good thing if not taken to excess. If you need a 20 ton press, you don't go out and buy a 100 ton version on the basis that "I might need it some day"! grin


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: 6PakBee] #2891426
02/21/21 12:21 PM
02/21/21 12:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,021
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline OP
master
Bad340fish  Offline OP
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Tulsa OK
I have 200 amp service already I believe.

I will just do an interlock for the generator circuit. It makes sure you turn off the main to turn on the generator breaker. My Dad just had his panel replaced and went that route.


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Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: Bad340fish] #2892080
02/23/21 01:12 AM
02/23/21 01:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,200
Someplace you aren't
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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Someplace you aren't
Get the QO. It’s a nicer panel with real copper etc. really doesn’t cost much more.

Do 200 amps. No question. The morons that put the old panel in my house had a 125 when the house had 200 delivered. So I could watch the lights dim big time when the ac kicked. It’s not even very old hvac. Went to 200 and you barely notice. Plus I can do much more now and have added about four breakers already. Too boot, they are on the way to banning gas and you’ll be ready to charge something when they take away your choice.


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Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2892128
02/23/21 09:17 AM
02/23/21 09:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,229
In The Hills
J
jughed Offline
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In The Hills
What's the size and condition of the meter base?..and also the entrance cable size/condition??
If an inside panel is upgraded in size, then a higher amperage meter base and larger entrance cable may be required depending on local code.
Since a generator and transfer switch are in the plans then you may as well upgrade the meter base too (depending on size and condition of what you have now), and install a 200 amp panel. Replacing the base and entrance cable isn't a difficult job to do if an electrician's cost is out of the price range
Don't skimp on the electric stuff. Go Square D...all the way. As stated already, they have been around for a long time. Any other brand...buy extra circuit breakers just in case they go out of business. A lot of panels have been replaced because breakers were no longer available. My 95 yr old house had one of those old "push-o-matic" panels.

Originally Posted by Stanton
.... A 200amp panel is a waste of money. A 100amp panel is fine for pretty much any home...



A 200 amp base does not cost much more than a 100, plus there's room for expansion (seen many meter bases burnt up because of people running space heaters and whatever else on way overloaded circuits), and it's a bonus for when you sell the home...but then again, if it's a rickety 5 room shack with few circuits then a 200 amp would be a waste of money.




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Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: jughed] #2892231
02/23/21 12:53 PM
02/23/21 12:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,696
central il.
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second 70 Offline
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And QO has a cheaper version that sells at improvement stores and a commercial one that sells for electric contractors. They are interchangeable but are different quality. The expensive one is the main in this picture and as you can see is all black. The ones with the size in white and yellow D on them are the cheaper breakers.

IMG_2398.JPG
Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: DAYCLONA] #2892253
02/23/21 01:29 PM
02/23/21 01:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,453
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Originally Posted by DAYCLONA
[quote=Stanton]
Quote
a 200 amp service is pissing money away.



If your going "by the book," (permits/inspection) a 200 amp panel is the requirement in some State codes


The max main panel (typ w/meter) amperage will be dictated by the capacity (ampacity) of the Electric Companies service wire (OH) or cable (UG) that directly feeds that panel

There may be minimum panel amps installed per AHJ (authority having jurisdiction).

Last edited by autoxcuda; 02/23/21 02:13 PM.
Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: jughed] #2892261
02/23/21 01:44 PM
02/23/21 01:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,453
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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So Cal
Originally Posted by jughed
What's the size and condition of the meter base?..and also the entrance cable size/condition??
If an inside panel is upgraded in size, then a higher amperage meter base and larger entrance cable may be required depending on local code.
Since a generator and transfer switch are in the plans then you may as well upgrade the meter base too (depending on size and condition of what you have now), and install a 200 amp panel. Replacing the base and entrance cable isn't a difficult job to do if an electrician's cost is out of the price range
Don't skimp on the electric stuff. Go Square D...all the way. As stated already, they have been around for a long time. Any other brand...buy extra circuit breakers just in case they go out of business. A lot of panels have been replaced because breakers were no longer available. My 95 yr old house had one of those old "push-o-matic" panels.

Originally Posted by Stanton
.... A 200amp panel is a waste of money. A 100amp panel is fine for pretty much any home...



A 200 amp base does not cost much more than a 100, plus there's room for expansion (seen many meter bases burnt up because of people running space heaters and whatever else on way overloaded circuits), and it's a bonus for when you sell the home...but then again, if it's a rickety 5 room shack with few circuits then a 200 amp would be a waste of money.



Even though a 200 amp cost the same, it may be larger than the electric companies feeding wire or cable can handle.

Sometimes changing the feeding wire or cable is a easy change. Sometimes it’s a lot of added expense for customer. And if the customer doesn’t want to do what’s necessary, but still installs the overly large amp panel... the electric company will make you rip the panel out and put the properly sized panel in. (If you don’t we’ll cut your power as it’s a danger to yourself and community).

Last edited by autoxcuda; 02/23/21 02:11 PM.
Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: autoxcuda] #2892279
02/23/21 02:25 PM
02/23/21 02:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
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6PakBee  Offline
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Posts: 10,702
North Dakota
Originally Posted by autoxcuda
Originally Posted by jughed
What's the size and condition of the meter base?..and also the entrance cable size/condition??
If an inside panel is upgraded in size, then a higher amperage meter base and larger entrance cable may be required depending on local code.
Since a generator and transfer switch are in the plans then you may as well upgrade the meter base too (depending on size and condition of what you have now), and install a 200 amp panel. Replacing the base and entrance cable isn't a difficult job to do if an electrician's cost is out of the price range
Don't skimp on the electric stuff. Go Square D...all the way. As stated already, they have been around for a long time. Any other brand...buy extra circuit breakers just in case they go out of business. A lot of panels have been replaced because breakers were no longer available. My 95 yr old house had one of those old "push-o-matic" panels.

Originally Posted by Stanton
.... A 200amp panel is a waste of money. A 100amp panel is fine for pretty much any home...



A 200 amp base does not cost much more than a 100, plus there's room for expansion (seen many meter bases burnt up because of people running space heaters and whatever else on way overloaded circuits), and it's a bonus for when you sell the home...but then again, if it's a rickety 5 room shack with few circuits then a 200 amp would be a waste of money.



Even though a 200 amp cost the same, it may be larger than the electric companies feeding wire or cable can handle.

Sometimes changing the feeding wire or cable is a easy change. Sometimes it’s a lot of added expense for customer. And if the customer doesn’t want to do what’s necessary, but still installs the overly large amp panel... the electric company will make you rip the panel out and put the properly sized panel in. (If you don’t we’ll cut your power as it’s a danger to yourself and community).


Uh, maybe. My utility would just have you replace the main breaker in the panel and life is good.


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Home electrical panel upgrade [Re: 6PakBee] #2892287
02/23/21 02:30 PM
02/23/21 02:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,453
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,453
So Cal
Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by autoxcuda
Originally Posted by jughed
What's the size and condition of the meter base?..and also the entrance cable size/condition??
If an inside panel is upgraded in size, then a higher amperage meter base and larger entrance cable may be required depending on local code.
Since a generator and transfer switch are in the plans then you may as well upgrade the meter base too (depending on size and condition of what you have now), and install a 200 amp panel. Replacing the base and entrance cable isn't a difficult job to do if an electrician's cost is out of the price range
Don't skimp on the electric stuff. Go Square D...all the way. As stated already, they have been around for a long time. Any other brand...buy extra circuit breakers just in case they go out of business. A lot of panels have been replaced because breakers were no longer available. My 95 yr old house had one of those old "push-o-matic" panels.

Originally Posted by Stanton
.... A 200amp panel is a waste of money. A 100amp panel is fine for pretty much any home...



A 200 amp base does not cost much more than a 100, plus there's room for expansion (seen many meter bases burnt up because of people running space heaters and whatever else on way overloaded circuits), and it's a bonus for when you sell the home...but then again, if it's a rickety 5 room shack with few circuits then a 200 amp would be a waste of money.



Even though a 200 amp cost the same, it may be larger than the electric companies feeding wire or cable can handle.

Sometimes changing the feeding wire or cable is a easy change. Sometimes it’s a lot of added expense for customer. And if the customer doesn’t want to do what’s necessary, but still installs the overly large amp panel... the electric company will make you rip the panel out and put the properly sized panel in. (If you don’t we’ll cut your power as it’s a danger to yourself and community).


Uh, maybe. My utility would just have you replace the main breaker in the panel and life is good.


Sometimes. Depends on situation

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