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Ignition Timing Theory #2891457
02/21/21 01:01 PM
02/21/21 01:01 PM
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ragtop Offline OP
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If a particular engine can take full mechanical advance at a relatively low RPM, then why can't it take even more advance at redline RPM?
For an example, let's say a 340 can take a full advance of 35 degrees at 2000 RPM, why can't it take, let's say another 10 degrees for a total of 45 degrees at a 6000 RPM redline?
Any of these examples are at W.O.T. dump, no Vac advance.
Thank you.

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: ragtop] #2891482
02/21/21 01:52 PM
02/21/21 01:52 PM
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Tig Offline
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Good question, you would have thought this would be the case since the air / fuel charge takes a finite time to burn and since the piston is not in the optimum "window" or "Vector" as long at a higher rpm. In practice however taking timing out with a high speed retard can help. I'm not fully versed on why this is, it's likely down to combustion chamber design, camshaft timing etc. The theory I hear is that chamber temp increases at Hi RPM and with it the combustion speed, thus requiring later ignition timing. Again in practice this can vary, some combo's will pick up other's will not. It's pretty easy to do if you run any digital ign system so it's worth a try. I've yet to run this year but already have it programmed into the grid.
Interested to see others input here popcorn


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Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: ragtop] #2891585
02/21/21 05:59 PM
02/21/21 05:59 PM
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rftroy Offline
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David Vizard in his book "How to Build Horsepower" give a general, non-mathematical, description of the ignition process vs rpm.

So I don't violate copyright, I will paraphrase.
He writes that apart from the physical characteristics of the combustion chamber, RPM, manifold vacuum, fuel type, and other factors; mixture motion has a big effect on the combustion process.
Best power output occurs when the cylinder pressure reaches its highest level at about 15 degrees after TDC under all conditions. This is governed by the geometry and mechanics of the engine.
When the engine is turning below ~2000 RPM, the combustion rate of the fuel/air mixture is about the same. So, as the engine speeds up, the piston is moving faster, but the combustion front isn't, so it will take about he same amount of time for the combustion to finish. This means that the ignition timing needs to advance as the engine is going faster to have the same time for combustion before the piston reaches 15 ATC.

Between about 2000 and 3000 RPM, the mixture is moving fast enough that it starts to increase the rate of the fuel burning. The faster the mixing, the faster the fuel burns. After about 3000, or so, the rate at of mixing is increasing the rate of fuel burning very closely to directly proportionally to the increase in RPM. Therefore, no change in timing is needed as RPM increases.

This is all generally true for a 4 stroke internal combustion, normally aspirated engine. But each engine and setup will vary the details.

I highly recommend any and all books by David Vizard. He has decades of extensive experience as a race engine engineer and writes in a very clear way and backs his statements up with hard data and clear plots.
The "How to build Horsepower" book is particularly good.

Robert


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Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: rftroy] #2891602
02/21/21 06:43 PM
02/21/21 06:43 PM
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ragtop Offline OP
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Thank you Robert. Very well written and easy to understand.

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: ragtop] #2891667
02/21/21 09:11 PM
02/21/21 09:11 PM
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Cab_Burge Offline
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The key to finding the best ignition advance for any motor is to first verify the mark on the balancer and the timing tab to insure TDC or zero is at TDC, then verify the advance marks on the tab and or on the balancer with a degree wheel referenced to TDC on the pistons.
The next important thing is to make sure your timing light is accurate also and then at the race track or on a engine dyno find the best total ignition timing for that day with that fuel and weather conditions.
Once your in the ball park on the best known correct, accurate, ignition timing to run the best ET and MPH or make the most HP on the dyno that day is to make several runs or pulls with less than the best known total timing for that motor and then sneak up by adding 1 to 2 degrees advance at a time until it starts to slow down on the 1/4 MPH or make less power on the dyno. If it runs the same at 34,35 and 36 degrees BTDC then you know what your motor likes.
To answer your question about the motor liking more advance they will talk to you if you listen and test, they are like women, they like what they like that day, more ain't better, same on less also shruggy scope
I have raced Mopar V8 since the early 1960s, all the 318,340 and 360 NHRA stocker motors I've built, dyno tested and raced at the track like 30 to 32 degrees total timing for the best E T and MPH.
A friend of mine race several different 340 and 360 cars in NHRA stock for many years that he set class records that he said they like 38 to 42 degrees total timing, he thought and believe they like that until he retarded one back to 34 trying to slow his car down in qualifying so he wouldn't get HP added onto his class. The car went faster and he broke out first round shock
He called me on his way home about it speeding up with less timing and later ended up finding out at a different track that his car like form 30 to 33 degrees BTDC maximum total at WOT and above 4500 RPM, not from 38 to 42 like he believed before because another racer told him that on a race car he had bought from that guy shruggy
Your trying to get the maximum push on the top of the piston as it starts down on the power stroke, any thing less makes less power and any more advance will lead to pinging or detonation slowing the car down and making less power also.

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/24/21 03:48 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: Cab_Burge] #2891675
02/21/21 09:30 PM
02/21/21 09:30 PM
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dragon slayer Offline
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For a WOT as the engine is speeding up, the mixture probably is lean as the circuits catch up. Also at lower WOT RPM the compression pressure is lower. All this slows fuel burn so the advanced timing is helpful. As you reach your higher RPM the mixture should be richer and the compression pressure is higher and your total advanced is proper for peak HP with the total timing. That timing is probably not optimized at the 3000 rpm, but your accelerating and not in that range long; and it is not detrimental. Like too much timing at max rpm would be.

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: rftroy] #2891732
02/22/21 01:07 AM
02/22/21 01:07 AM
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jwb123 Offline
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Originally Posted by rftroy
David Vizard in his book "How to Build Horsepower" give a general, non-mathematical, description of the ignition process vs rpm.

So I don't violate copyright, I will paraphrase.
He writes that apart from the physical characteristics of the combustion chamber, RPM, manifold vacuum, fuel type, and other factors; mixture motion has a big effect on the combustion process.
Best power output occurs when the cylinder pressure reaches its highest level at about 15 degrees after TDC under all conditions. This is governed by the geometry and mechanics of the engine.
When the engine is turning below ~2000 RPM, the combustion rate of the fuel/air mixture is about the same. So, as the engine speeds up, the piston is moving faster, but the combustion front isn't, so it will take about he same amount of time for the combustion to finish. This means that the ignition timing needs to advance as the engine is going faster to have the same time for combustion before the piston reaches 15 ATC.

Between about 2000 and 3000 RPM, the mixture is moving fast enough that it starts to increase the rate of the fuel burning. The faster the mixing, the faster the fuel burns. After about 3000, or so, the rate at of mixing is increasing the rate of fuel burning very closely to directly proportionally to the increase in RPM. Therefore, no change in timing is needed as RPM increases.

This is all generally true for a 4 stroke internal combustion, normally aspirated engine. But each engine and setup will vary the details.

I highly recommend any and all books by David Vizard. He has decades of extensive experience as a race engine engineer and writes in a very clear way and backs his statements up with hard data and clear plots.
The "How to build Horsepower" book is particularly good.

Robert


I agree a very good book, it is on my shelf as well. One of the main engine mechanical factors that affects timing is the rod stroke ratio, a long rod stroke ratio keeps the piston dwelled at TDC longer, so you need a little more advance, to compensate. As one of the other posts mentioned most small blocks like 32 to 34 degrees advance in my experience, and most of the long rod big blocks like 36 to 40 degrees advance. Fuel burn rate is the other big factor, usually the higher the octane of the fuel the slower it burns, and alcohol burns slower yet. But Vizard is right, a lot of factors play into it, and sometimes an engine defies the normal.

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: Cab_Burge] #2892547
02/24/21 02:56 AM
02/24/21 02:56 AM
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Mcode69 Offline
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
The key to finding the best ignition advance for any motor is to first verify the mark on the balancer and the timing tab to insure TDC or zero is at TDC, then verify the advance marks on the tab and or on the balancer with a degree wheel referenced to TDC on the pistons.
The next important thing is to make sure your timing light is accurate also and then at the race track or on a engine dyno find the best total ignition timing for that day with that fuel and weather conditions.
Once your in the ball park on the best known correct, accurate, ignition timing to run the best ET and MPH or make the most HP on the dyno that day is to make several runs or pulls with less than the best known total timing for that motor and then sneak up by adding 1 to 2 degrees advance at a time until it starts to slow down on the 1/4 MPH or make less power on the dyno. If it runs the same at 34,35 and 36 degrees BTDC then you know what your motor likes.
To answer your question about the motor liking more advance they will talk to you if you listen and test, they are like women, they like what they like that day, more ain't better, same on less also shruggy scope
I have raced Mopar V* since the early 1960s, all the 318,340 and 360 NHRA stocker motors I've built, dyno tested and raced at the track like 30 to 32 degrees total timing for the best E T and MPH.
A friend of mine race several different 340 and 360 cars in NHRA stock for many years that he set class records that he said they like 38 to 42 degrees total timing, he thought and believe they like that until he retarded one back to 34 trying to slow his car down in qualifying so he wouldn't get HP added onto his class. The car went faster and he broke out first round shock
He called me on his way home about it speeding up with less timing and later ended up finding out at a different track that his car like form 30 to 33 degrees BTDC maximum total at WOT and above 4500 RPM, not from 38 to 42 like he believed before because another racer told him that on a race car he had bought from that guy shruggy
Your trying to get the maximum push on the top of the piston as it starts down on the power stroke, any thing less makes less power and any more advance will lead to pinging or detonation slowing the car down and making less power also.
Exactly mine doesn't like any more than 31* , 360 10.8 comp Edddies .040" quench hyd/ roller.

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: ragtop] #2892548
02/24/21 03:47 AM
02/24/21 03:47 AM
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hysteric Offline
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Both very different driving conditions.

What makes you think more timing is better? Quality mixtures need less timing because the burn speed is faster. If you need more timing to make power either the mixture is lean or the combustion is less than ideal.

The more timing you need the more negative work the motor has to do.








Last edited by hysteric; 02/24/21 03:48 AM.
Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: Mcode69] #2892549
02/24/21 04:30 AM
02/24/21 04:30 AM
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I found 30 total to be best on my 408 during dyno testing. EQ iron heads, 10.1 compression.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: ragtop] #2892623
02/24/21 11:16 AM
02/24/21 11:16 AM
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polyspheric Offline
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There are 2 different targets here, and they don't always line up.
1. maximum power at fixed RPM and load.
2. knock avoidance, which varies with load. This is why high gear retard is sometimes needed, especially with high trap speed and/or small engine.


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Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: polyspheric] #2892704
02/24/21 02:37 PM
02/24/21 02:37 PM
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GTX MATT Offline
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It can and will, the difference is not 10 degrees though. It depends on how well one can set up a distributor, and what the physical limitations of that distributor and available springs are. But according to the experts such as Smokey Yunick and Bill Jenkins, most engines will like 1-2 degrees of additional timing per 1000 RPM above peak torque.

You can see this play out in alot of dyno sessions, many engines will make peak torque with 2-4 degrees less timing than they make peak HP with. The narrower the powerband the less the curve between the two points matters.

But the ideal curve can be very difficult to acheive with a mechanical advance distributor, and even if using something digital it could take a long time to get it optimal on a dyno or track for very marginal gains. Then factor in that an engine will tolerate and make more power with slightly more timing in lower gears or any other condition that reduces load. Theoretically DA can also affect this as it changes air density.. It could be a ton of work for a few HP or ft lbs that never shows up on an ET slip. If theres only 1500 RPM between peak torque and peak horsepower the old locked at XX degrees might run just as fast or within the margin of error, and it probably does.


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: ragtop] #2893084
02/25/21 04:27 PM
02/25/21 04:27 PM
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dizuster Offline
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Ignition timing is all about trying to make the most pressure, at the latest crank angle possible. Create the pressure too soon, and it simply tries to push the crank out the bottom of the block (no crank angle = no rotation). If you wait too long, the piston moves down the hole too fast, lowering the compression/pressure.

A motor at WOT will require the least amount of ignition timing at peak torque. This is because the engine is breathing best (highest Volumetric Efficiency %) at peak torque. With the cylinder packed with Air/Fuel at this RPM, it needs less timing. Think of it that the air/fuel molecules are packed closer together, and react quicker.

At any RPM before or after peak torque, more ignition timing is needed because there is less air/fuel packed into the cylinder (lower VE%). With the air/fuel molecules spread further apart, it takes longer to burn from one to another to the next. So since the burn time is slower, you need to ignite it earlier to achieve the same cylinder pressure.

Let say hypothetically that a motor makes peak torque at 6000 RPM. It's likely (somewhat) that it will want the same timing at 5,000rpm (1,000 RPM lower than peak torque), as it does at 7,000rpm (1,000 RPM above peak torque). Although you might think that because the piston has less time near TDC at 7,000 RPM vs 5,000 RPM, and might want more ignition timing. The reason it doesn't is because the higher engine speed actually rapidly mixes the air/fuel much better, which speeds up the burn process.

Just so you don't think I'm BSing you... lol "As engine speed increases, the intensity of turbulence, swirl, squish, and tumble all increase, resulting in a faster flame speed." (Engineering Fundamentals of the Internal Combustion Engine, p280)

Basically the flame speed increases directly with RPM, which offsets the need to start the burn sooner.

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: dizuster] #2893090
02/25/21 04:37 PM
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jlatessa Offline
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Thanks Dizuster, very lucid and understandable explanation.

Joe

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: jlatessa] #2894649
03/02/21 04:34 AM
03/02/21 04:34 AM
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I basically agree with everyone. One way to look at it is that when you are picking up speed going down the track the eng can use timing in a fast advance as the eng picks up rpm. But once in high gear and the eng is screaming along at 6000 to 7000 rpm and the weight of the car is not being pulled hard as now the eng is running along with the movement of the car and not pulling the weight of the car so much so then to much timing can also hurt since the eng is now turning alot of rpm and not pulling so hard all that advance can more or less want to slow the piston down now firing so early its like some kick back but when you retard some of that advance at full throttle it can actually help the eng rolling along and help pushing the piston by not firing as early since the eng is now screaming at 7000 rpm. The more compressed mixture at WOT will also burn faster and dont need as much advance then. Basically it needs the advance to pick up speed very fast but once the eng is steady at high rpm it does not need as much timing since the eng is turning very fast now and want the timing to help pushing the piston down and not slowing it down by firing to early once the cars weight is rolling along. Like with vacuum advance when the eng is at a light cruise speed the mixture is a bit leaner then idle and its not compressed as tight so it burns slow and the eng can use up to 50 degrees timing at light part throttle which is where the vacuum advance is made to work. But at higher rpm the eng cant take that much timing and the mixture is compressed tighter at high rpm and burns faster. Most of you basic V/8 engines of the muscle car days would have about 36 degrees of full mech advance at high rpm but at cruise and light throttle they can push 50 degrees timing with the vacuum advance timing added. The vacuum advance of course drops off to 0 at WOT since the vacuum drops to about 0 and then the eng runs on just the mech advance. You have to remember the mixture is not always richer with more throttle as it gets much more volume but it can still be leaner at times since it also takes in alot of air. Ron.

Last edited by 383man; 03/02/21 04:45 AM.
Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: dizuster] #2894650
03/02/21 04:39 AM
03/02/21 04:39 AM
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383man Offline
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Originally Posted by dizuster
Ignition timing is all about trying to make the most pressure, at the latest crank angle possible. Create the pressure too soon, and it simply tries to push the crank out the bottom of the block (no crank angle = no rotation). If you wait too long, the piston moves down the hole too fast, lowering the compression/pressure.

A motor at WOT will require the least amount of ignition timing at peak torque. This is because the engine is breathing best (highest Volumetric Efficiency %) at peak torque. With the cylinder packed with Air/Fuel at this RPM, it needs less timing. Think of it that the air/fuel molecules are packed closer together, and react quicker.

At any RPM before or after peak torque, more ignition timing is needed because there is less air/fuel packed into the cylinder (lower VE%). With the air/fuel molecules spread further apart, it takes longer to burn from one to another to the next. So since the burn time is slower, you need to ignite it earlier to achieve the same cylinder pressure.

Let say hypothetically that a motor makes peak torque at 6000 RPM. It's likely (somewhat) that it will want the same timing at 5,000rpm (1,000 RPM lower than peak torque), as it does at 7,000rpm (1,000 RPM above peak torque). Although you might think that because the piston has less time near TDC at 7,000 RPM vs 5,000 RPM, and might want more ignition timing. The reason it doesn't is because the higher engine speed actually rapidly mixes the air/fuel much better, which speeds up the burn process.

Just so you don't think I'm BSing you... lol "As engine speed increases, the intensity of turbulence, swirl, squish, and tumble all increase, resulting in a faster flame speed." (Engineering Fundamentals of the Internal Combustion Engine, p280)

Basically the flame speed increases directly with RPM, which offsets the need to start the burn sooner.


Very well said. Ron

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: 383man] #2894700
03/02/21 09:47 AM
03/02/21 09:47 AM
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dragon slayer Offline
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After reading his question a few times, I am not sure we actually answered his question. The question implies that 34 degree advance at 2K is perfect timing and the motor "can take it", so why is 34 the max at 6K and the motor (my words) "can't take any more timing". While a lot has been explained about the upper RPM and reasons. We have not explained why a higher adv tolerance at low RPM is acceptable. Which it is, though not without affects.

His question about recommended all in at 2K is really a drag strip tuning. But at the strip your either at idle, launch rpm (usually way above 2K), or WOT from launch rpm. So you only care about initial timing for starting and idle, and WOT advance. Your band of rpm operation from start to finish is typical a small RPM range all at the upper end of the motor limit.

Part of the answer as alluded too is that at the higher RPM and best VE, timing is critical for max power and prevention of detonation. That seems to be 34-38 for 440, and slightly less for hemi but typical for motors. All about the highest pressure at the right geometry so that maximum positive work done under the curve. The motor is not a linear machine.

At lower RPM and poorer VE there is a much smaller chance for detonation and a greater tolerance for timing variation. There still would be a perfect point at an RPM, but being off that point would not be as problematic as it would be at 6-7K rpm.
.
By 68 to meet emission standards a stock hemi had 0 timing regardless of Trans, a 30 deg mech advance for a total of 30. But you did not get max mech until about 48 to 5K rpm. Plus vacuum of about 20 deg at 15". The 440 4 spd gave 36 mech with 22 deg at 16"

While it all worked, if you went to the strip, you would want your total timing in earlier then 5K, with your vacuum plugged. Hence the typical mod for a street strip car. Take heavy spring out. Move to the pre emission timing with more initial timing (6-12 for a factory spec), and less mech adv on the arm (20-26).
With a more modified engine some folks like higher initial even for street; I don't). I think for a street strip you want easy of starting cold or hot, with a good idle mixture. Then let the distributor curve give you your performance needs.

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: dragon slayer] #2894816
03/02/21 02:23 PM
03/02/21 02:23 PM
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moparx Offline
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and as Cab is fond of saying : "test, test, and test some more !"
it's the only way you will be able to get what your engine [and you] needs to accomplish the goals you set for your combination.
beer

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: moparx] #2894827
03/02/21 02:48 PM
03/02/21 02:48 PM
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Does anyone know what the timing curve looks like for a 500-inch Pro Stock engine ?

Re: Ignition Timing Theory [Re: hemienvy] #2894845
03/02/21 03:12 PM
03/02/21 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by hemienvy
Does anyone know what the timing curve looks like for a 500-inch Pro Stock engine ?

Not on here work grin
Those that do know won't or can't share that information twocents


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)






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