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Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Twostick] #2890180
02/18/21 05:22 PM
02/18/21 05:22 PM
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Ray S Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Twostick
GearVendors with a yoke input and output. Hang it in place of the carrier bearing and shorten one drive shaft. You can probably find a used one for $1K or less and have it freshened up and installed for half of the cost of a 518/618/46RH conversion and swap.

Kevin

I literally drive by the GV shop regularly, and have looked for used.
If I go GV, I still have a 50 year old trans with 70k miles, and no locking TC...
In an RV app, I want a trans to lower the RPM due to my smaller tires (225-19.5 vs 8R17), and lock for cooler, efficient Hwy driving.
It also has to survive the Grapevine at WOT for 15 minutes pushing 11,000 lbs, so cooler is good. The A727 will, and has, but I'd rather upgrade than rebuild when it's time.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2890206
02/18/21 06:35 PM
02/18/21 06:35 PM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Originally Posted by Ray S
Originally Posted by Twostick
GearVendors with a yoke input and output. Hang it in place of the carrier bearing and shorten one drive shaft. You can probably find a used one for $1K or less and have it freshened up and installed for half of the cost of a 518/618/46RH conversion and swap.

Kevin

I literally drive by the GV shop regularly, and have looked for used.
If I go GV, I still have a 50 year old trans with 70k miles, and no locking TC...
In an RV app, I want a trans to lower the RPM due to my smaller tires (225-19.5 vs 8R17), and lock for cooler, efficient Hwy driving.
It also has to survive the Grapevine at WOT for 15 minutes pushing 11,000 lbs, so cooler is good. The A727 will, and has, but I'd rather upgrade than rebuild when it's time.


Is that an 8R17 or 8R17.5? I can't find a listing for an 8R17 but an 8R17.5 is 30.9" tall.

A 225/70/19.5 is 32" tall.

I'd be willing to bet if the current transmission has no issues, a fluid and filter change with a band adjustment will take it another 50 years and 70K.

If I was building a 518/46RH for that application I would be using all the diesel stuff in it, drums, clutches, planets and overdrive section.

If you're thinking the Ultrabell option, make sure it can house a big converter. I seem to recall reading somewhere that 10" is the limit. Not ideal for that application IMHO.

Here's a link to Tranz Tech in Dubuque IA. They have a process to weld a big block bell to a small block case.

http://www.tranztech.net/overdrive.html

Kevin

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Twostick] #2890209
02/18/21 06:45 PM
02/18/21 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Twostick
Originally Posted by Ray S
Originally Posted by Twostick
GearVendors with a yoke input and output. Hang it in place of the carrier bearing and shorten one drive shaft. You can probably find a used one for $1K or less and have it freshened up and installed for half of the cost of a 518/618/46RH conversion and swap.

Kevin

I literally drive by the GV shop regularly, and have looked for used.
If I go GV, I still have a 50 year old trans with 70k miles, and no locking TC...
In an RV app, I want a trans to lower the RPM due to my smaller tires (225-19.5 vs 8R17), and lock for cooler, efficient Hwy driving.
It also has to survive the Grapevine at WOT for 15 minutes pushing 11,000 lbs, so cooler is good. The A727 will, and has, but I'd rather upgrade than rebuild when it's time.


Is that an 8R17 or 8R17.5? I can't find a listing for an 8R17 but an 8R17.5 is 30.9" tall.

A 225/70/19.5 is 32" tall.

I'd be willing to bet if the current transmission has no issues, a fluid and filter change with a band adjustment will take it another 50 years and 70K.

If I was building a 518/46RH for that application I would be using all the diesel stuff in it, drums, clutches, planets and overdrive section.

If you're thinking the Ultrabell option, make sure it can house a big converter. I seem to recall reading somewhere that 10" is the limit. Not ideal for that application IMHO.

Here's a link to Tranz Tech in Dubuque IA. They have a process to weld a big block bell to a small block case.

http://www.tranztech.net/overdrive.html

Kevin


Sorry I miss-typed; the 7.50R17 was OEM and 34.2 diameter, and about 2" taller than my new ones (pic)
I did the fluid and bands less than 1k ago, so shifting well. My thought has been that if the swap is a PITA or >$4k then I'll just leave it.
My van has all the 48RE hard parts etc they could put in it, and runs well.

I will call TranzTech for sure, thanks!

compared.jpg
Last edited by Ray S; 02/18/21 06:46 PM.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2890227
02/18/21 07:35 PM
02/18/21 07:35 PM
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I also just bookmarked this thread: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/140863/all/727-to-a518-swap.html
and will also be calling http://www.phoenixtrans.com/

I like the idea of the shop "just" welding a RB bell onto the 518 and eliminate the spacer.
Our 73 Jeepster had, all original, an AMC 304 and TH400 trans with OEM adapter, which cracked 2 flex plates due to imperfect machining/alignment. Argg.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Doc Fiberglass] #2890887
02/20/21 09:43 AM
02/20/21 09:43 AM
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Yes an the offer was very much appreciated. The 2000 mile round trip pulling a trailer last summer during the middle of the Covid stuff put a damper on your kind offer sir. I will revise my post to say a local cheap 413 core has proved to be hard to come by.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2890889
02/20/21 09:54 AM
02/20/21 09:54 AM
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There was a machinist with a Travco that went by Chewbacca that tried welding a 727 bellhousing to a 518. After all that work it was slightly misaligned and he cut it off and used an ultrabell. His story was on one of the classic RV forums. Used gear vendors boxes come up from time to time on Ebay.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2890891
02/20/21 09:57 AM
02/20/21 09:57 AM
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Ray, what kind of RPM's are you turning at 55 and 65 with your current setup? Is the 413 mostly stock, or do you have a cam, headers, ??? What kind of mileage do you get with your rig?

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2890999
02/20/21 01:07 PM
02/20/21 01:07 PM
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Quote
If I was building a 518/46RH for that application I would be using all the diesel stuff in it, drums, clutches, planets and overdrive section.

Some of the diesel stuff(drums) won't fit in the case. The 500/518/46rh is still a small block trans. An ultrabell on a 47/48RH would handle it. Not sure if they changed bolt pattern on them though.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2891036
02/20/21 02:16 PM
02/20/21 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Yes an the offer was very much appreciated. The 2000 mile round trip pulling a trailer last summer during the middle of the Covid stuff put a damper on your kind offer sir. I will revise my post to say a local cheap 413 core has proved to be hard to come by.


But mGO ... you could have had THREE of them ... I had NINE good core motors !

Define CHEAP ! ... what .. INSURANCE ADJUSTER CheapO ??


cheap, nosy, obnoxious? ...moi ?? ... just call it a HOBBY !!
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2891085
02/20/21 03:23 PM
02/20/21 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Ray, what kind of RPM's are you turning at 55 and 65 with your current setup? Is the 413 mostly stock, or do you have a cam, headers, ??? What kind of mileage do you get with your rig?


2700 @ 55
3200 @ 65
BTW the truck versions had a governor set at 3,400 RPM redline!

All stock except HEI and hot/cold air cleaner snorkel
~9-10MPG
working on the code for a RaspberryPi dash computer with fuel meter (I added O2, vacuum, drive shaft, spark and crank sensors)

IMG_7381.JPGIMG_5392.JPG
Last edited by Ray S; 02/20/21 03:27 PM.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Moparite] #2891088
02/20/21 03:26 PM
02/20/21 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Moparite
Quote
If I was building a 518/46RH for that application I would be using all the diesel stuff in it, drums, clutches, planets and overdrive section.

Some of the diesel stuff(drums) won't fit in the case. The 500/518/46rh is still a small block trans. An ultrabell on a 47/48RH would handle it. Not sure if they changed bolt pattern on them though.


yep, 413/440 pattern and TC is larger, thus the need for adapter or bell swap
they are also 2.5" longer so trans mount and DS shortening need attention

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2891370
02/21/21 10:57 AM
02/21/21 10:57 AM
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9 to 10mpg is pretty respectable mileage for what you are running.

For comparison I'm getting 12 to 13 in a 21,000 pound Class A with 5 speed automatic. 1800 to 1900 rpm.


Mo' Farts
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Moparite] #2891396
02/21/21 11:29 AM
02/21/21 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Moparite
Quote
If I was building a 518/46RH for that application I would be using all the diesel stuff in it, drums, clutches, planets and overdrive section.

Some of the diesel stuff(drums) won't fit in the case. The 500/518/46rh is still a small block trans. An ultrabell on a 47/48RH would handle it. Not sure if they changed bolt pattern on them though.

No such thing as a 48RH, RE only and the 47RH was two years only, '94 & '95 diesel or V10.


"Follow me" the wise man said, but he walked behind.

The Scamp is sold, now just two old trucks and one new one.
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion.
'74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NP435, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. NV4500 coming soon.
2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Doc Fiberglass] #2891531
02/21/21 03:22 PM
02/21/21 03:22 PM
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Again, I appreciate the offer Doc. Cheap is relative depending upon time involved. If I was going to Michigan on vacation anyway it would have been one thing. Vacation was ruined by governor's edict. Combine that with my doctor telling me to stay close to home because of health issues and the unknown about the covid stuff and it did not work out for me to make the trip last year.

Last edited by mgoblue9798; 02/21/21 03:22 PM.
Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2891677
02/21/21 09:31 PM
02/21/21 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray S
Originally Posted by roadrunninMark
Ray, the computer, or controller, is available for the 8 speed. Sound German Automotive makes them. I've been thinking about putting an 8 speed in my barracuda, behind a hopped up small block. I just don't want to cut up the trans tunnel to get it in there. I know it will bolt up but not sure what is needed to have the proper connection between the TQ and the flex plate.


There are 2 that make TCMs for it
https://www.soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/
https://htg-tuning.com/

but no physical adapters to the RB blocks.
You'd think someone could; if they have the CAD for the 440, and the CAD for the ZF end, why not?



I thought the hemi bellhousing pattern was the same as a smallblock. Aren't a lot of guys using 727's when they do hemi swaps in older muscle cars?

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Ray S] #2891688
02/21/21 10:04 PM
02/21/21 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray S
Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Ray, what kind of RPM's are you turning at 55 and 65 with your current setup? Is the 413 mostly stock, or do you have a cam, headers, ??? What kind of mileage do you get with your rig?


2700 @ 55
3200 @ 65
BTW the truck versions had a governor set at 3,400 RPM redline!

All stock except HEI and hot/cold air cleaner snorkel
~9-10MPG
working on the code for a RaspberryPi dash computer with fuel meter (I added O2, vacuum, drive shaft, spark and crank sensors)



What kind of MPG improvement did you see as a result of the HEI and cold air induction? Did you do those before or after the switch to radial tires?

Will the raspberry thing be a data logger, or allow control over engine management? One more question- how in the heck are you getting those MPG's using a holley?

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2891702
02/21/21 10:50 PM
02/21/21 10:50 PM
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Quote
I thought the hemi bellhousing pattern was the same as a smallblock. Aren't a lot of guys using 727's when they do hemi swaps in older muscle cars?


The B and RB as well as the Hemi have the same pattern. Not sure on the Gen 3 Hemi. That may be small block pattern.

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: NITROUSN] #2891714
02/21/21 11:43 PM
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gen 3 is small block pattern

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: Grizzly] #2891722
02/22/21 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Grizzly
9 to 10mpg is pretty respectable mileage for what you are running.

For comparison I'm getting 12 to 13 in a 21,000 pound Class A with 5 speed automatic. 1800 to 1900 rpm.


That's pretty good
I got 10.5 in my Southwind years ago with headers and a few mods

A few people put Cummins in their Travcos and get 14-15 usually with a 48RE behind it

Re: OD/locking trans options for 1971 413 [Re: mgoblue9798] #2891727
02/22/21 12:54 AM
02/22/21 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Originally Posted by Ray S
Originally Posted by mgoblue9798
Ray, what kind of RPM's are you turning at 55 and 65 with your current setup? Is the 413 mostly stock, or do you have a cam, headers, ??? What kind of mileage do you get with your rig?


2700 @ 55
3200 @ 65
BTW the truck versions had a governor set at 3,400 RPM redline!

All stock except HEI and hot/cold air cleaner snorkel
~9-10MPG
working on the code for a RaspberryPi dash computer with fuel meter (I added O2, vacuum, drive shaft, spark and crank sensors)



What kind of MPG improvement did you see as a result of the HEI and cold air induction? Did you do those before or after the switch to radial tires?

Will the raspberry thing be a data logger, or allow control over engine management? One more question- how in the heck are you getting those MPG's using a holley?


Not sure of any MPG improvement, but I have a local hill climb test I do that went from 41s to 39s from a standing start.

Pi has a 7" touch screen just to log / display data ( I normally write a lot of code) and maybe control an air bleed (IAC) that I got for mountain driving. I go up to 9,000' in the Sierras.

The 390CFM 4150 is all the low-rpm motor needs and was built and tuned by Rick Walker Carbs. I think the HEI helped a LOT - certainly runs a lot smoother than the OEM even after it had new bushings and all. I also use Mopar Performance Tune for the timing with a degree tape, and the dizzy was tweaked by The Dyno Shop.

I posted this on Tapatalk years ago:
Quote
I just had a 4150C Holley R-6189A gone through, with stagger jetting; no real issues, just confirming it was clean and jets were OEM. These carbs also have the 6.5 power valve and 2 idle screws only on the secondary block.
Holley tech confirmed the set:
L-Pri 59, R-Pri 57
L-Sec 70, R-Sec 72
It is a 413-1 in a Travco RV, and the left barrels see the deeper side of the dual plane intake; I presume that the left jets are larger since that side gets less average vacuum (I get ~16" at idle at 4000').
Once I put the HEI back on I'll be re-checking my O2 sensors' results, and I'm using Champion type 120 plugs at .045
When I was looking at the O2 data before I could see one or 2 were leaner than the others, but because of the cross-over manifold it's hard to tell which.


I also stay 65 or under on the freeway...

tuner SW.jpgtune results.jpg4150 built.jpg
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