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Anti-freeze turned brown #2853292
11/30/20 12:05 PM
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Fresh motor, iron block and heads, stock radiator. Anti-freeze put in, cam broke in. Took car around the block and parked it. 6 months later (or maybe immediately) the stuff is the color of strong strong coffee. Never seen that before? This is not rust colored at all. As I said, looks like coffee, real strong coffee.

Any ideas? Seems to test for -35 ok.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: SportF] #2853300
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Originally Posted by SportF
Fresh motor, iron block and heads, stock radiator. Anti-freeze put in, cam broke in. Took car around the block and parked it. 6 months later (or maybe immediately) the stuff is the color of strong strong coffee. Never seen that before? This is not rust colored at all. As I said, looks like coffee, real strong coffee.

Any ideas? Seems to test for -35 ok.
Did you use staight anti freeze or a mix? I noticed with anti freeze and tap water it always turned dirty. Started using distilled water and it was much better looking.


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Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: carnut68] #2853303
11/30/20 12:31 PM
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I used tap water. Well, its from our well. But, never had this happen before when using tap water. 50% is what you gotta use here in Minnesota.

I could say it "can" get cold here. But I should say, it "does" get cold here.

Last edited by SportF; 11/30/20 12:33 PM.
Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: SportF] #2853305
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I still would think it's rust even though it doesn't look rusty. Mine turned rusty right after break-in. The block had been sitting for years prior to being installed. I really should drain the system and fill it with EvapoRust, bring the engine up to temp and let it cool down over night. Then drain everything and re-fill.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: SportF] #2853306
11/30/20 12:37 PM
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Take a sample to a heavy equipment dealer (Cat for example) and have them run an acidity on the antifreeze. That happened to me once and it turned out to be a leaking head gasket.


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Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: SportF] #2853402
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Sounds like it could be a head gasket.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: 3404] #2853448
11/30/20 04:43 PM
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Pulled all the plugs and they look good. Plus, when it was running it didn't blow through the radiator.

Now, in better light, it looks dark dark green in the milk storage jug its setting in.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: SportF] #2853470
11/30/20 05:39 PM
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I'd still have it checked. The way I found out I was in trouble was when the core plug heater started leaking. When I drained the antifreeze I thought something was amiss and when I found that almost all of the heater metal part on the coolant side had been eaten I knew I was in trouble. whistling


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Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: 6PakBee] #2853552
11/30/20 08:37 PM
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Do a simple flush first ( youtube Chris fixx coolant flush), I know its fresh, but follow the way he does it. Use distilled water, not your wells'.

If its still acting up, have it tested or get yourself a combustible gas tester as mentioned before.

If its a head gasket, doing a simple compression test should answer that

Last edited by moparjim79; 11/30/20 08:38 PM.
Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2853567
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Originally Posted by moparjim79

If its still acting up, have it tested or get yourself a combustible gas tester as mentioned before.

If its a head gasket, doing a simple compression test should answer that


I'll agrees with the first two suggestions, but not the third. if it's leaking bad enough to show up on a compression test there wouldn't be a question or need for the first two as it would be pretty obvious due to loss of coolant, overheating, missing etc.
beer

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: TJP] #2853569
11/30/20 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by moparjim79

If its still acting up, have it tested or get yourself a combustible gas tester as mentioned before.

If its a head gasket, doing a simple compression test should answer that


I'll agrees with the first two suggestions, but not the third. if it's leaking bad enough to show up on a compression test there wouldn't be a question or need for the first two as it would be pretty obvious due to loss of coolant, overheating, missing etc.
beer


I disagree, there's head gaskets that catastrophically fail and ones that fail but only act up when full operating temp is reached, repeating this many times when brought to temp but not bucking/carrying on for quite a while, then it $hits the bed all together. Heres another kinda easy test, put a borescope down the plug tube and tell us what the piston tops look like.
Keeping in mind now, 1 of your 3 criteria is already met.

Last edited by moparjim79; 12/01/20 07:58 AM.
Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2853596
11/30/20 10:31 PM
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Well, here is what is wrong with the head gasket theory, it isn't blowing bubbles in the radiator.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: SportF] #2853618
11/30/20 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SportF
Well, here is what is wrong with the head gasket theory, it isn't blowing bubbles in the radiator.


That doesn't always happen. Thats why I made mention of the test kit

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2853664
12/01/20 07:58 AM
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When working as a dealer tech I changed brown nasty coolant many times. Flush well and replace. That fixes it. There is nothing the matter with the head gaskets.
Doug

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: dvw] #2853710
12/01/20 10:06 AM
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Run it for several heat cycles, check the bottom of your overflow jug for sediment. If it's rust from the iron block, there will be a layer of silt in the jug [eventually]. One of my 440s does it and I recall more silt when changing a block freeze plug. A/F is much more green than brown. When it starts getting too dark, I back flush it with the block plugs out and clean the jug then start again.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: dvw] #2853755
12/01/20 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dvw
When working as a dealer tech I changed brown nasty coolant many times. Flush well and replace. That fixes it. There is nothing the matter with the head gaskets.
Doug


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Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: Grizzly] #2853811
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i have had several engines over the years that had the "factory fill" coolant turn a nasty "poop" color, and it took several flushes over a couple month time period to clean it up so it would remain a clean, green color.
also, i'm not a fan of the new style "pre mixed" stuff. some of that can turn color when mixed with any residual coolant left in the system.
GM dexcool is the worst of the worst, and should be avoided at ALL costs !
as already been mentioned, use distilled water with a QUALITY coolant, but you may have to flush a couple of times to get it to stay clean.
i am also leaning toward a coolant filter plumbed into a radiator hose, but i haven't pulled the trigger on one yet.
beer

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2854042
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Originally Posted by moparjim79
Originally Posted by TJP
Originally Posted by moparjim79

If its still acting up, have it tested or get yourself a combustible gas tester as mentioned before.

If its a head gasket, doing a simple compression test should answer that


I'll agrees with the first two suggestions, but not the third. if it's leaking bad enough to show up on a compression test there wouldn't be a question or need for the first two as it would be pretty obvious due to loss of coolant, overheating, missing etc.
beer


I disagree, there's head gaskets that catastrophically fail and ones that fail but only act up when full operating temp is reached, repeating this many times when brought to temp but not bucking/carrying on for quite a while, then it $hits the bed all together. Heres another kinda easy test, put a borescope down the plug tube and tell us what the piston tops look like.
Keeping in mind now, 1 of your 3 criteria is already met.


Please explain how
Quote
ones that fail but only act up when full operating temp is reached
is going to show up on a compression test ?
shruggy

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: TJP] #2854056
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What are the different types of compression tests? Thats why I brought this up. Also, to be clear, a compression test is not the end all. A leak down test should probably be performed as well.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2854573
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Static (Cranking) and Dynamic (running). I'm doubting if either would show that small of a leak or a leak down test for that matter. I'm not trying to start a peeing contest just not understanding how any of the above would find that small of a leak.
I believe having the coolant analyzed would likely be the best approach or a chemical check for combustion gas in the system with the engine running :beer

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: TJP] #2854576
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Originally Posted by TJP
Static (Cranking) and Dynamic (running). I'm doubting if either would show that small of a leak or a leak down test for that matter. I'm not trying to start a peeing contest just not understanding how any of the above would find that small of a leak.
I believe having the coolant analyzed would likely be the best approach or a chemical check for combustion gas in the system with the engine running :beer


TJ, me either, and there are more than those. I agree the best test is a combustible gas test, but it sounds like the advice given will still fall on deaf ears.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2854579
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Originally Posted by moparjim79
Originally Posted by TJP
Static (Cranking) and Dynamic (running). I'm doubting if either would show that small of a leak or a leak down test for that matter. I'm not trying to start a peeing contest just not understanding how any of the above would find that small of a leak.
I believe having the coolant analyzed would likely be the best approach or a chemical check for combustion gas in the system with the engine running :beer


TJ, me either, and there are more than those. I agree the best test is a combustible gas test, but it sounds like the advice given will still fall on deaf ears.


iagree Things don't happen for no reason. At least that's been my experience.


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Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2854968
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Originally Posted by moparjim79
Originally Posted by TJP
Static (Cranking) and Dynamic (running). I'm doubting if either would show that small of a leak or a leak down test for that matter. I'm not trying to start a peeing contest just not understanding how any of the above would find that small of a leak.
I believe having the coolant analyzed would likely be the best approach or a chemical check for combustion gas in the system with the engine running :beer


TJ, me either, and there are more than those. I agree the best test is a combustible gas test, but it sounds like the advice given will still fall on deaf ears.


OMG, and I thought I was the only one LOL, I even had my brother in Ca. check to see if maybe my font's were white and not visible. LOLA.

up beer

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: 6PakBee] #2855131
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Well, its not really falling on deaf ears. I'm going to change the fluid in the spring and then see what happens.

Also, to clarify, this gets to look like coffee. You can still see through it when its, say, a stream less than 3/4" deep.

But you should explain to all here how combustion gas at 500psi plus doesn't pressurize a 7 pound cap on the radiator. I'm willing to learn here, just don't see how that happens.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: SportF] #2855163
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Originally Posted by SportF
Well, its not really falling on deaf ears. I'm going to change the fluid in the spring and then see what happens.

Also, to clarify, this gets to look like coffee. You can still see through it when its, say, a stream less than 3/4" deep.

But you should explain to all here how combustion gas at 500psi plus doesn't pressurize a 7 pound cap on the radiator. I'm willing to learn here, just don't see how that happens.


I will be the first to admit, your problem doesn't seem straightforward. From your initial post, "Anti-freeze put in, cam broke in. Took car around the block and parked it. 6 months later (or maybe immediately) the stuff is the color of strong strong coffee." From this if you break in a cam like I do (20 minutes), breaking in the cam, a trip around the block, and some miscellaneous time, you have probably, what, about 30 minutes total on the engine? That doesn't sound like a lot of run time to develop your problem. But you have to start somewhere and an antifreeze check eliminates both combustion gasses and oil contamination and could prevent you from wasting a coolant repalcement. Can a head gasket leak and not lift the radiator cap? No. But a slight leak just gets vented.


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Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: SportF] #2855165
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Originally Posted by SportF
Well, its not really falling on deaf ears. I'm going to change the fluid in the spring and then see what happens.

Also, to clarify, this gets to look like coffee. You can still see through it when its, say, a stream less than 3/4" deep.

But you should explain to all here how combustion gas at 500psi plus doesn't pressurize a 7 pound cap on the radiator. I'm willing to learn here, just don't see how that happens.


Am I reading this correctly? Are you putting it out there you did a compression test and you've got 500 psi?

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2855213
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Originally Posted by moparjim79
Originally Posted by SportF
Well, its not really falling on deaf ears. I'm going to change the fluid in the spring and then see what happens.

Also, to clarify, this gets to look like coffee. You can still see through it when its, say, a stream less than 3/4" deep.

But you should explain to all here how combustion gas at 500psi plus doesn't pressurize a 7 pound cap on the radiator. I'm willing to learn here, just don't see how that happens.


Am I reading this correctly? Are you putting it out there you did a compression test and you've got 500 psi?


No. Every time a cylinder fires, the combustion pressure is (actually quite a bit higher than) 500 psi.

I should point out that I had a turbo car once that blew a head gasket from detonation - it would run completely normally for hundreds of miles UNLESS I hit the boost. No brown coolant, no overpressure in the radiator. But even at 3-4 psi boost, the car would overheat within 30 seconds and puke all the coolant. Wait for it to cool down, refill radiator, drive again for hours. I finally pulled the head and the fire ring on one cylinder was pushed out to where it just reached a cooling passage.

So head gaskets can do strange things.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: DrCharles] #2855364
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Originally Posted by DrCharles
Originally Posted by moparjim79
Originally Posted by SportF
Well, its not really falling on deaf ears. I'm going to change the fluid in the spring and then see what happens.

Also, to clarify, this gets to look like coffee. You can still see through it when its, say, a stream less than 3/4" deep.

But you should explain to all here how combustion gas at 500psi plus doesn't pressurize a 7 pound cap on the radiator. I'm willing to learn here, just don't see how that happens.


Am I reading this correctly? Are you putting it out there you did a compression test and you've got 500 psi?


No. Every time a cylinder fires, the combustion pressure is (actually quite a bit higher than) 500 psi.

I should point out that I had a turbo car once that blew a head gasket from detonation - it would run completely normally for hundreds of miles UNLESS I hit the boost. No brown coolant, no overpressure in the radiator. But even at 3-4 psi boost, the car would overheat within 30 seconds and puke all the coolant. Wait for it to cool down, refill radiator, drive again for hours. I finally pulled the head and the fire ring on one cylinder was pushed out to where it just reached a cooling passage.

So head gaskets can do strange things.


Thank you for posting that. I worked on a srt4 that did the same thing. Customer could not understand that when you put 30 lbs of boost to a build, everything better be up to snuff. The mopar oem head gaskets almost did the job.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: moparjim79] #2855539
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An alternative method is getting an oil sample checked.

I ran the combustion gas test on my Jeep 4.0 and it was fine. No evidence of a blown head gasket. The oil looked good too. Not milky.
I took an oil sample and sent it to Blackstone Labs. They identified high levels of potassium in the oil, which is from antifreeze. The oil analysis confirmed a head problem even when the combustion gas test didn't. Not a big leak, but enough to show high levels of lead in the oil, indicating the bearings were getting eaten by the antifreeze.

Re: Anti-freeze turned brown [Re: Tom_440] #2856220
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Originally Posted by Tom_440
An alternative method is getting an oil sample checked.

I ran the combustion gas test on my Jeep 4.0 and it was fine. No evidence of a blown head gasket. The oil looked good too. Not milky.
I took an oil sample and sent it to Blackstone Labs. They identified high levels of potassium in the oil, which is from antifreeze. The oil analysis confirmed a head problem even when the combustion gas test didn't. Not a big leak, but enough to show high levels of lead in the oil, indicating the bearings were getting eaten by the antifreeze.


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But I'm sure the
Quote
I'm going to change the fluid in the spring and then see what happens.
will solve the problem whistling beer

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