Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
drive shaft end yoke phaseing #2847731
11/17/20 05:08 PM
11/17/20 05:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
master
68LAR  Offline OP
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Does anyone know what the max, "out of phase" angle is for the end yokes of a two yoke drive shaft? I've read anywhere from 1*- 3*.


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2847855
11/17/20 09:51 PM
11/17/20 09:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
We are talking radial phasing? I would think 0deg off would be the goal.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: jcc] #2847858
11/17/20 10:06 PM
11/17/20 10:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
master
68LAR  Offline OP
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Originally Posted by jcc
We are talking radial phasing? I would think 0deg off would be the goal.


I have a drive shaft that the angles are 2* off. I have a vibration when decelerating. Wondering if this could be the cause? I agree that 0* would be optimum.

Last edited by 68LAR; 11/17/20 10:09 PM.

4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2847873
11/17/20 10:34 PM
11/17/20 10:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
Sounds like pinion angle problems on that problem deaccelerating and shaking make vibrations only off the throttle like I had more than once with to much pinion angle shruggy scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: jcc] #2847892
11/17/20 11:18 PM
11/17/20 11:18 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 702
Lake Villa Il
INTMD8 Offline
super stock
INTMD8  Offline
super stock

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 702
Lake Villa Il
Originally Posted by jcc
We are talking radial phasing? I would think 0deg off would be the goal.


Yes that's what it sounded like to me as well.

Op are you saying that the trans up/down angle is off vs pinion up/down angle or when front u-joint is straight up and down the rear u-joint is rotated a number of degrees clockwise/counterclockwise in relation?

Shouldn't be any -twist- in the shaft.

As for front to back, the angles should cancel out. For example, if trans output is 2deg down, rearend should be 2deg up, then u-joints cancel each other out.

Not uncommon for pinion to be -down- outside this range on a drag car as it will climb the pinion on launch and performance is priority to smoothness.

But, for chasing vibrations, here is a good visual. Don't forget to check centering driver to passenger side also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idk3BVDVHq4

Last edited by INTMD8; 11/17/20 11:19 PM.

69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: INTMD8] #2848035
11/18/20 10:47 AM
11/18/20 10:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
master
68LAR  Offline OP
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Originally Posted by INTMD8
Originally Posted by jcc
We are talking radial phasing? I would think 0deg off would be the goal.


Yes that's what it sounded like to me as well.

Op are you saying that the trans up/down angle is off vs pinion up/down angle or when front u-joint is straight up and down the rear u-joint is rotated a number of degrees clockwise/counterclockwise in relation?

Shouldn't be any -twist- in the shaft.

As for front to back, the angles should cancel out. For example, if trans output is 2deg down, rearend should be 2deg up, then u-joints cancel each other out.

Not uncommon for pinion to be -down- outside this range on a drag car as it will climb the pinion on launch and performance is priority to smoothness.

But, for chasing vibrations, here is a good visual. Don't forget to check centering driver to passenger side also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idk3BVDVHq4


Trans angle is 2* down.
Rearend angle is 2* down
Drive shaft angle is 3* down
The drive shaft weld on end yokes are 2* off. If I zero one end yoke, the other end is 2* off.


Last edited by 68LAR; 11/20/20 09:17 AM.

4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2848110
11/18/20 12:59 PM
11/18/20 12:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
Granted perfect 0 degree phasing would be ideal. But if the phasing was causing the issue it would vibrate on accell as well. Shaking on decell sounds like the pinion is to far down. That being said your angles dont add up. Trans down 2 at the rear. axle up 2 at the nose is zero. Where do you get the 3 degree pinion angle from? What am I missing?
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 11/18/20 01:02 PM.
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: dvw] #2848148
11/18/20 01:44 PM
11/18/20 01:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
master
68LAR  Offline OP
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Originally Posted by dvw
Granted perfect 0 degree phasing would be ideal. But if the phasing was causing the issue it would vibrate on accell as well. Shaking on decell sounds like the pinion is to far down. That being said your angles dont add up. Trans down 2 at the rear. axle up 2 at the nose is zero. Where do you get the 3 degree pinion angle from? What am I missing?
Doug
. Rear end is lower than tranny...


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2848182
11/18/20 02:55 PM
11/18/20 02:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
master
68LAR  Offline OP
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Just N FYI. I found from a machine shop, that the phase differential should be within 1*. I'm close so, I got to look wlsewhere.


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2848254
11/18/20 05:05 PM
11/18/20 05:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
might not apply here but l had a part time occaisional vibration on decell & there was not enough yoke engagement in the tailhousing. a longer shaft with the same yoke took care of it.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: RapidRobert] #2848267
11/18/20 05:36 PM
11/18/20 05:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
master
68LAR  Offline OP
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Originally Posted by RapidRobert
might not apply here but l had a part time occaisional vibration on decell & there was not enough yoke engagement in the tailhousing. a longer shaft with the same yoke took care of it.
. This is where I' m looking next. I'm about 3 3/4" out from end of tailshaft. I have replaced the tailshaft bushing with no change. Also new u joints at both ends. I measured the engagement of the input yoke. It is real close to about 3 1/2". Vertically no side to side or up and down wobble.

Last edited by 68LAR; 11/18/20 05:38 PM.

4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2848348
11/18/20 09:24 PM
11/18/20 09:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
The angle isnt changed by the location of either centerline by height location. How are pinion angle and rear end angle different? Still dont see how you come up that +2 and -2 end up at 3. If your numbers are correct (+2, -2) you should have 0 static driveshaft angle. This would result in an undesirable + angle under load. A vibration on decell is generally due to much - angle as the pinion drives towards the ground. It appears that the yoke seems to be pretty far out at the trans. There may be the cause.
Doug

Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2848353
11/18/20 09:52 PM
11/18/20 09:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
To the OP, the "out of phase" term is not really proper here it seems as to your real intended question, best others not repeat it, 'phase' on a DS normally refers to the orientation radially of the yokes around 360Deg, which can by it itself lead to vibration issues, depending on the various angles you are asking about, but its doubtful IMO your problem centers around radial phasing of the yokes.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: jcc] #2848387
11/18/20 10:54 PM
11/18/20 10:54 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,679
Florida
BDW Offline
master
BDW  Offline
master

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,679
Florida
New or old problem, what kind of transmission?
Here’s my issue that I fought for 2 years

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...-rear-axle-shim-install.html#Post2737639

Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2848605
11/19/20 12:46 PM
11/19/20 12:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,275
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
master
jbc426  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,275
West Coast, USA
Originally Posted by 68LAR
Does anyone know what the max, "out of phase" angle is for the end yokes of a two yoke drive shaft? I've read anywhere from 1*- 3*.


I'm a bit confused by some of the nomenclature being used in this post and some of the responses. I found this article helpful in understanding my driveline and it's set-up. Also, I have often consulted with Dr Diff for further verification of my findings before I alter things.

https://www.hotrodhotline.com/md/html/drive_shaft_harmonics.php

My driveline is smooth as silk until I get to around 98 mph. Once I begin to exceed that, I get a vibration that increases in intensity the faster I go. At 130+ it is down right scary, so I no longer exceed 100 mph. I believe it is related to the excessive freeplay at the yoke to transmission bearing, both of which are new. There are several posts about this here and on For A-Bodies only.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: dvw] #2848701
11/19/20 03:23 PM
11/19/20 03:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
68LAR Offline OP
master
68LAR  Offline OP
master

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,999
South Park, Pa.
Originally Posted by dvw
Granted perfect 0 degree phasing would be ideal. But if the phasing was causing the issue it would vibrate on accell as well. Shaking on decell sounds like the pinion is to far down. That being said your angles dont add up. Trans down 2 at the rear. axle up 2 at the nose is zero. Where do you get the 3 degree pinion angle from? What am I missing?
Doug



Sorry about the confusion. I had a brain cramp. I corrected my previous post to read correctly. I'm 2* down on both the tranny and pinion.


4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: RapidRobert] #2848898
11/20/20 03:14 AM
11/20/20 03:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Graz, Austria
DGS Offline
mopar
DGS  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 635
Graz, Austria
When do you want to have 0° pinion angle? Cruise (low throttle), half throttle, full throttle? Drag car is easy (full thottle) but on a street/strip car? How many degrees does an axle usually move up from no throttle to full throttle (without caltracs or such)?

Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2848930
11/20/20 09:17 AM
11/20/20 09:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,843
Pattison Texas
CSK Offline
master
CSK  Offline
master

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,843
Pattison Texas
Originally Posted by 68LAR
Originally Posted by dvw
Granted perfect 0 degree phasing would be ideal. But if the phasing was causing the issue it would vibrate on accell as well. Shaking on decell sounds like the pinion is to far down. That being said your angles dont add up. Trans down 2 at the rear. axle up 2 at the nose is zero. Where do you get the 3 degree pinion angle from? What am I missing?
Doug



Sorry about the confusion. I had a brain cramp. I corrected my previous post to read correctly. I'm 2* down on both the tranny and pinion.


When my Charger was like that is was not good at any highway mph cruising, I now have it,,,, trans from right to left, 2.5 down, Pinion 1.5 up with Caltac's set 1/4 " loose so the pinion can come up a little under cruise conditions to match the Trans angle, when I go racing, my preload on the Caltacs makes the Pinion go to 1 down & so far that has worked great.

Last edited by csk; 11/20/20 09:19 AM.

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: drive shaft end yoke phaseing [Re: 68LAR] #2849034
11/20/20 12:36 PM
11/20/20 12:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
Originally Posted by 68LAR
Originally Posted by dvw
Granted perfect 0 degree phasing would be ideal. But if the phasing was causing the issue it would vibrate on accell as well. Shaking on decell sounds like the pinion is to far down. That being said your angles dont add up. Trans down 2 at the rear. axle up 2 at the nose is zero. Where do you get the 3 degree pinion angle from? What am I missing?
Doug




Sorry about the confusion. I had a brain cramp. I corrected my previous post to read correctly. I'm 2* down on both the tranny and pinion.
*
Ok that clears it up. Your pinion has to rise 4 degrees to get to zero angle. In the ballpark for leaf spring or Cal Tracks by their spec. CSK makes a valid point that this is not ideal for cruise. To DGS question. Ideal is close to Zero. But since the these angles are constantly changing, where do you set them? I've run 4 degrees nose down at cruise without issue. What happens you remove angle during cruise? Let's take CSK's example trans down 2.5, pinion up 1.5. This results in a 1 degree down pinion at cruise, nice. But under load the pinion will be 3 degrees higher than Calverts suggestion. It's all a juggling act. On a street/strip car if you end up between 0 and 2 degrees up at the pinion under load it will work. If the car is strictly one or the other you can dial it in even closer. Also remember on decell the pinion drops towards the ground. If you are running the old school 7 degree it can get pretty severe on shut down.
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 11/20/20 12:56 PM.






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1