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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: dizuster]
#2847481
11/17/20 11:24 AM
11/17/20 11:24 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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For some reason, people don't seem to ever compare apples to apples in this situation. "I only want to build a 600hp big block, because there are no good blocks available to build a 1000hp turbo motor?"
There is a REALLY nice 500-800hp sweet spot for cost effective turbo builds. You can take mostly factory parts and with a little fab work and knowledge, build a very nice 10.0 combo (Which the masses trend towards to stay away from the roll cage, cert, NHRA license, etc...)
That being said...
People are scared to try and fabricate
People are intimidated on how to tune (Fuel vs. Timing vs. Boost)
You WILL need electronics to make a good bracket car (Trans brake, boost controller, etc...)
Mine has now been together for over 8 years and been in the 9's since August of 2014. I would say it's probably never made under 550~600hp in it's entire existance, and probably up close to 900hp when set on kill occasionally. Most the time it lives a nice happy 750hp life as I usually run it right around 9.90 or so.
Same stock 360 block, same stock 360 crank, eddy heads, .540 lift hydraulic roller, 3.55 gear.
Your car is wicked impressive....I would put those new aluminum "steely" wheels on it and a turbo G3 Hemi in it, and see how far you can go.....Love that car. I was shocked when it went well into the 9's....That is a perfect drag week car.
Last edited by Dragula; 11/17/20 11:24 AM.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: 8urvette]
#2847501
11/17/20 12:06 PM
11/17/20 12:06 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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I don't understand why people think you have to do something special to BB to make it turbo friendly.
Because with good heads and a stroker kit and a turbo, it goes kaboom real easy above 750hp...The block is a big limiter hp wise. Which is why most will just build a 700hp NA stroker.
Last edited by Dragula; 11/17/20 12:07 PM.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: Dragula]
#2847509
11/17/20 12:16 PM
11/17/20 12:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 781
wine country
8urvette
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 781
wine country
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I don't understand why people think you have to do something special to BB to make it turbo friendly.
Because with good heads and a stroker kit and a turbo, it goes kaboom real easy above 750hp...The block is a big limiter hp wise. Which is why most will just build a 700hp NA stroker. I have no first hand experience with this for a BB. However I do have substantial experience with imports. Everybody always said these particular motors come apart at 300 Hp. I have proved that wrong by a long shot. Lost of boost and lower RPMS the import engines live very well. A HP number is just that a number. A 440 making 800 HP n/a will have to spin much higher ( be a tightly wound motor) than a 440 under 15 psi. A 440 under boost will make so much more tq and HP at a lower rpm than a NA I believe it will last a long time. I will see soon enough.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: Dragula]
#2847583
11/17/20 01:26 PM
11/17/20 01:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,663
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,663
Wichita
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I don't understand why people think you have to do something special to BB to make it turbo friendly.
Because with good heads and a stroker kit and a turbo, it goes kaboom real easy above 750hp...The block is a big limiter hp wise. Which is why most will just build a 700hp NA stroker. I keep hearing those numbers but keep ignoring them...LOL.  Light weight rotating assembly, keeping the revs under 6500 and out of detonation are probably keeping hope alive.
Last edited by GY3; 11/17/20 01:36 PM.
'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: 8urvette]
#2847669
11/17/20 03:34 PM
11/17/20 03:34 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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I don't understand why people think you have to do something special to BB to make it turbo friendly.
Because with good heads and a stroker kit and a turbo, it goes kaboom real easy above 750hp...The block is a big limiter hp wise. Which is why most will just build a 700hp NA stroker. I have no first hand experience with this for a BB. However I do have substantial experience with imports. Everybody always said these particular motors come apart at 300 Hp. I have proved that wrong by a long shot. Lost of boost and lower RPMS the import engines live very well. A HP number is just that a number. A 440 making 800 HP n/a will have to spin much higher ( be a tightly wound motor) than a 440 under 15 psi. A 440 under boost will make so much more tq and HP at a lower rpm than a NA I believe it will last a long time. I will see soon enough. My last 440/512 stroker was built back in 2010 and went as fast as 9.70 at 138.5mph on pump gas NA, won the Championship in 2013 with it.....I put hundreds of passes on it and its now in a street car with less cam and iron heads running 10.70's,,,,,,,So tell me again how a drag motor can't live long...Made 700hp most of its life with no power adder....I want to run 1000-1300hp and a stock block is asking for a lot of trouble at that level. If that engine had an after market block, I would have changed pistons, and added boost and knocked a full second off our ET and gone 8.70's but there in lies the issue, I called everyone I could think of for a block, and nobody had one...... I don't car about a 600hp turbo 4cyl or an 800hp turbo G3 when I have a +800hp NA street car...We are looking to go a bit faster. Cars in the "street class" these days show up with a 632 and two kits on it.....my junk don't compete with that. And I am no fan of imports so don't park behind me, I use them as wheel chocks...lol
Last edited by Dragula; 11/17/20 03:39 PM.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: Dragula]
#2847706
11/17/20 04:31 PM
11/17/20 04:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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The only thing stopping you from going faster is the false limits you put on an oe block. Aftermarket blocks do not insure an engine will not fail.... it just makes an engine more tolerable to tuning mistakes.
Not saying everyone is capable of keeping an engine alive, but as long as there are those that can, shows it can be done. There definitely is some risk/ reward in trying.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2847726
11/17/20 04:57 PM
11/17/20 04:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,670
On the parachute mount
n20mstr
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,670
On the parachute mount
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AH...back to stock block big blocks.....i went 9.teens at 3500+ lbs. 446 wih two NOS plates stacked on it. I just expected to "drive over the crank" every pass, but it never happened...LOL
Stock Block/main caps , Stock 3.75 stroke crank, Alum rods....It lasted what seemed forever ! ! Never a problem ran that for a few seasons. ANd that was early 90's
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: plycuda]
#2847785
11/17/20 07:14 PM
11/17/20 07:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 27
Tampa FL
BillR1212
member
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member
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 27
Tampa FL
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my deal I have been running big blocks for 40 years. you can find parts easy and cheap. my motor in my satelite i got the eagle crank and rods for 700 and they were new. had a couple engines that I got years ago for nothing just to tow the cars out.throw on a set of sr heads and flat tops.bought nitrous selonoids and plates off people changing over to turbos cheap and my all steel satelite in street trim full exhaust stock interior, radio playing went a 5.96 at 117 with a 200 shot. im going to a daily driver race sunday see if I can go quicker. I would like to try a pro charger but they don.t make anything for old mopars, plenty for new stuff. The supercharger store makes brackets for 340 and 440 engines.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2847795
11/17/20 07:26 PM
11/17/20 07:26 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,383
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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The only thing stopping you from going faster is the false limits you put on an oe block. Aftermarket blocks do not insure an engine will not fail.... it just makes an engine more tolerable to tuning mistakes.
Not saying everyone is capable of keeping an engine alive, but as long as there are those that can, shows it can be done. There definitely is some risk/ reward in trying.
You can tell that to the guy that just did my headers....He just knocked all the bores out of a .03 over 440 with a 6/71 right above the fill, seems 20psi is a tad too much.....the BBM has limits, and he has found most of them over the years. So go ahead, make 1000hp with a stock block, we have one running down at the shop, and one not running down at the shop....They do not like a lot of boost....Sure people build them, yes they go fast, and yup, they let go.....We just built a 512 B1 stock block 440.....We will see how many passes that makes, its 10:1 with 10psi with a roots 6/71....They do sound good while they last, I wish the video I took would have captured correctly, all I can say is wow, but I will wait till I have a block.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: Dragula]
#2847804
11/17/20 07:49 PM
11/17/20 07:49 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
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I'm curious: how much spark lead do these RB blower motors use?
I've heard numbers as low as 15 degrees for LS.
Yellow Bullet probably has some traffic on this.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2847807
11/17/20 07:54 PM
11/17/20 07:54 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 781
wine country
8urvette
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 781
wine country
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I'm curious: how much spark lead do these RB blower motors use?
I've heard numbers as low as 15 degrees for LS.
Yellow Bullet probably has some traffic on this. id imagine every motor will behave differently. I had a 383 mopar on a dyno N/A and it loved timing. it kept making power at 41* I stopped adding timing and even backed it off a few, lost a few HP but it is street car. Back down at 20* the car was a total dog. Funny, I really thought 41* was just stupid high, but it loved it. What do LS motors run N/A timing?
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2847814
11/17/20 08:07 PM
11/17/20 08:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,663
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,663
Wichita
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I'm curious: how much spark lead do these RB blower motors use?
I've heard numbers as low as 15 degrees for LS.
Yellow Bullet probably has some traffic on this. Not sure on boost but the conservative recommendation for nitrous is pull 2° for every 50 hp shot. Personally I pull 6° for 30° total on a 200 shot. The LS engines use a LOT less timing due to the more efficient combustion chambers.
'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2847900
11/17/20 11:30 PM
11/17/20 11:30 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 710
Lake Villa Il
INTMD8
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 710
Lake Villa Il
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I'm curious: how much spark lead do these RB blower motors use?
I've heard numbers as low as 15 degrees for LS.
Yellow Bullet probably has some traffic on this. For higher horsepower turbo LS (say 1200-1600hp) I usually end up at most high teens. Maybe 17deg at 30psi on race fuel or E85. A few deg less at peak torque. 10 to 10.5-1 static CR Factory forced induction LSA/LS9 at 20psi or so can run mid 20's timing on E85. My first forced induction endeavor was a roots blown big block chevy when I was 19 in 1997. Because of books I read at the time the compression was -WAY- too low at 7.8-1 so it would take 30 deg from a locked out distributor with 12psi boost on 93.
69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: INTMD8]
#2847917
11/18/20 12:02 AM
11/18/20 12:02 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,073
oregon
greendart408
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,073
oregon
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R3, W8 you say...... have about 20 half azz 1/8 passes and been a nightmare so far. In the midst of about a 10k efi/intercooler switch as we speak so I can hopefully try to enjoy it again.
It’s not for the faint of heart, wallet or for a person who can’t fab.
Last edited by greendart408; 11/18/20 12:16 AM.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: dvw]
#2847967
11/18/20 06:18 AM
11/18/20 06:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Bowler Wisconsin
Smoparmike
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
Bowler Wisconsin
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There's a difference between being cash limited and cheap. That being said 800hp tyrbo car is cheaper to build than an 800 N/A. The skill set is different as there is some tubeing and mounting fabrication. It's really basic hot roding. I would be my sons (Diszuter) 360 turbo motor in my chassis would run with-in .10-.20 of what my 15-1 572 -1Indy motor runs. It's been together a while with less maintenance than mine.
Doug So True! I'm in a lower tax bracket then most. I don't think mopar guys are cheaper than brand X guys. They out number us a lot. Most brand X are worse than mopar guys because they are used to getting everything so cheap.
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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars?
[Re: FastmOp]
#2847986
11/18/20 08:25 AM
11/18/20 08:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,018
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,018
Tulsa OK
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I think WHEN I eventually go turbo I will need someone to password protect the boost controller for my own good.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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I used to drive it to the track and run 9's and drive it home, and back then there was not alot of that going on. It was using off the shelf parts on a stock block and iron Stage V(wedge stage V not hemi). I never hurt it and have no idea where it is or if it was run much at all after me. I had a great time with the car and was always a blast to drive. Maybe its time for me to build something with a power adder. I have dabbled with nitrous stuff also back in the 90/2000's. I left it to focus on NA stuff, and I can PROMISE you trying to make big power NA is more expensive than the power adder way. I could have had a helluva torbo.blower deal for the money I have dumped into going "fast" NA![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/XqQ1432d/8-FE3-DEBC-C6-D8-4-E02-8418-9673-C8-A2-A3-FA.jpg)
