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Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? #2846716
11/15/20 07:02 PM
11/15/20 07:02 PM
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Irving, TX
feets Offline OP
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I know stock stuff runs for a bazillion miles with no worries but lets not go there. smile

I've whittled down the head selection on my 543. The Eddy RPM heads are heading out for a tasty CNC job. Now, I need to solidify the uppy downy bits that lets the poor thing breathe.

Again, 5300 lb street car built for general hooliganism and the occasional road trip. That means trading off crazy power for longer life. It's also in my best interest to keep this thing under 6000 RPM so the crank doesn't go on vacation.

I'm looking hard at the Hughes 232/236/110 hydraulic flat cam. Teaming that thing up with some 1.6 rockers looks pretty tasty. Lift goes to .571/.582 and isn't too hard on parts. Typical lifter weight and moderate specs open up spring options.

However, I'm tempted to go with a more aggressive hydraulic roller cam like the Comp 236/242/110 .544/.541 which moves to .580/.577 with the faster rockers. The roller lifters are a lot heavier and will put more load on the springs and the rpm is a bit closer to my self imposed red line.

When it comes to racking up the miles will there be a significant difference in longevity of the components? Neither of these cams are radical but the motion is starting to get a little snappy, especially with the higher ratio rockers. I don't mind the price difference of going roller if longevity is there.

Valve spring technology has taken a big jump since I built my last motor. Ovate wire beehive type springs are doing the job of those old dual springs but I'm not sure if the action rate of these cam combos merit that type of thing. Each cam retailer has their preferred spring but there are sometimes better options available.

As for the rockers themselves, are the Mancini's good enough for daily type use or should I drop the coin for Harland?


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2846719
11/15/20 07:05 PM
11/15/20 07:05 PM
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Oregon
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Steel rocker arms are best for street use but not a lot of choices. I'd use Comp steel rocker arms on an engine like that but they are more expensive than the cheapest aluminum rockers. I'd also use a beehive spring on that engine but once again, the beehives are more money than generic dual spring.

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: AndyF] #2846726
11/15/20 07:19 PM
11/15/20 07:19 PM
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I have a customer who has a 62 Chrysler 300 that runs the absolute dog snot out of when the key is in the run position. That means 85 mph down the interstate and holding it to the floor when out on 2 lane roads. We opted for the 440 police interceptor cam, lifters and springs from Sealed Power. Heads were ported 452's. Its been together for over 10 years. Birdtracker

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2846747
11/15/20 08:39 PM
11/15/20 08:39 PM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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I don't think you will need 6000 rpm. With mild cams you listed 5600 might be plenty, and maybe less than that.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2846748
11/15/20 08:41 PM
11/15/20 08:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
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Rittman Ohio
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I had a cam similar to that in my old 440 and the factory type iron MW rockers on hard chrome shafts worked well for me. twocents

Gus beer


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493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
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Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2846752
11/15/20 08:51 PM
11/15/20 08:51 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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I don't think or believe that the lifter weight has any bearing on how the valve springs act, live or wear twocents work
Dale Armstrong did ,allegedly, some engine dyno testing on weight on the lifter side of the rocker arms by adding weight onto the pushrods back in the early 1970s when he owned and operated 10,0000 RPM speed shop in SO CA on one of his blown alcohol Hemi motors. His conclusion was that the weight he added on the lifter side of the valve train had no measurable impact on the motors HP or where the motor made peak torque or peak HP work scope
I was told by one of the better racer reps at Comp Cams 10 yrs ago that current hydraulic roller lifters where very sensitive to the valve spring pressures after having issues with their hydraulic roller lifters back then work whiney
I haven't used a hydraulic roller lifter cam or lifters since then, burnt once, twice shy twocents


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2846754
11/15/20 08:52 PM
11/15/20 08:52 PM
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Oregon
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Yes, a set of Isky nodular rocker arms would work great but they are hard to find these days. I kind of regret selling the couple of pair that I used to own since they would come in handy on some street builds.

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2846806
11/15/20 10:26 PM
11/15/20 10:26 PM
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SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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Be careful of aggressive hyd rollers....very fun to control. And not worth a bunch of power compared to something smoother with more lift. We would run around .650 at the valve.


Brian Hafliger
Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: AndyF] #2846811
11/15/20 10:46 PM
11/15/20 10:46 PM
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West Plains, MO
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Yes, a set of Isky nodular rocker arms would work great but they are hard to find these days. I kind of regret selling the couple of pair that I used to own since they would come in handy on some street builds.

One set is working nicely so far (420 street miles) in my 451 with .652 mushroom cam (430# over the nose)... Thanks! up

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2846821
11/15/20 11:19 PM
11/15/20 11:19 PM
Joined: May 2019
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Lake Villa Il
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Lake Villa Il
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
I don't think or believe that the lifter weight has any bearing on how the valve springs act, live or wear twocents work
Dale Armstrong did ,allegedly, some engine dyno testing on weight on the lifter side of the rocker arms by adding weight onto the pushrods back in the early 1970s when he owned and operated 10,0000 RPM speed shop in SO CA on one of his blown alcohol Hemi motors. His conclusion was that the weight he added on the lifter side of the valve train had no measurable impact on the motors HP or where the motor made peak torque or peak HP work scope


I agree.

Wish I would have discussed things with Dale other than old Cadillacs.


69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: Brian Hafliger] #2846827
11/15/20 11:26 PM
11/15/20 11:26 PM
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The Great White North
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Originally Posted by ou812
Be careful of aggressive hyd rollers....very fun to control. And not worth a bunch of power compared to something smoother with more lift. We would run around .650 at the valve.


Totally agreed. I've made more with less grief with a well thought out solid flat. J.Rob


2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
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Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2846899
11/16/20 09:11 AM
11/16/20 09:11 AM
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Charlotte, NC
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LSP Online content
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Lifter and pushrod weight means nothing, at 5000 or 10000 rpm.

Disagree about an aggressive hydraulic roller, did a small block with Morel std. travel lifters, small PSI dual spring, 615 hp and 8300 rpm

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: LSP] #2846905
11/16/20 09:29 AM
11/16/20 09:29 AM
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Irving, TX
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Originally Posted by LSP
Lifter and pushrod weight means nothing, at 5000 or 10000 rpm.

Disagree about an aggressive hydraulic roller, did a small block with Morel std. travel lifters, small PSI dual spring, 615 hp and 8300 rpm


And how many thousands of miles did you put on it?


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: AndyF] #2846960
11/16/20 11:21 AM
11/16/20 11:21 AM
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Wichita
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Yes, a set of Isky nodular rocker arms would work great but they are hard to find these days. I kind of regret selling the couple of pair that I used to own since they would come in handy on some street builds.


I use the old tried and true Cranes. Found brand new in a box from years ago at a swap meet for $100.

As for the Comp hydraulic roller lifters, they are garbage. More than one person I know that had problems with them. A lot of us run Howards now and have zero issues. Mine have well over 7,000 hard miles on them. Do yourself a favor and run the Crane melonized distributor drive gear as well.

Last edited by GY3; 11/16/20 11:23 AM.

'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2846971
11/16/20 11:40 AM
11/16/20 11:40 AM
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Nevada
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I would stick with the Hughes cam and lifters. I have the same cam and rocker ratio going into a motor I'm building right now. I have always had extremely good luck with Hughes stuff. Just follow the install and break in instructions that come with the cam. As for rocker arms
Do Not run steel on steel rockers. Can you post your results of your build for us?

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2846998
11/16/20 12:45 PM
11/16/20 12:45 PM
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Aurora, Colorado
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I have the comp Hydraulic roller cam in the 505" stroked 440.
Only have about 2,000 mile on it though.
Originally tried the cheap CAT 1.7:1 rocker arms, but they were not oiling correctly.
If I spent some $$$ rebuilding them with quality parts, they might be OK, but I just put on 1.6:1 Harlan Sharpe rockers, and on inspection after 1,000+ miles everything looks great. Engine is rev limited to 6,000 RPM, and I really recommend some type of RPM limiter because the valve springs are only 400 lb/in rate (ISKY 8005A)
The hydraulic roller seems to work OK, but is more expensive than a solid roller setup with no real benifit.
This is my only Hydraulic roller cam engine. Now, I just use mild solid roller cams. Spring selection is easier, and don't have to worry as much about the RPM limit. Also, I can't tell any difference in valve train noise. The Hydraulic setup seemed just as loud, but most of what I hear is all the roller components, sounding like a sewing machine. A mild exhaust drowns out any of the engine sounds anyway.

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2847157
11/16/20 05:32 PM
11/16/20 05:32 PM
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Nebraska
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Originally Posted by feets
I know stock stuff runs for a bazillion miles with no worries but lets not go there. smile

I've whittled down the head selection on my 543. The Eddy RPM heads are heading out for a tasty CNC job. Now, I need to solidify the uppy downy bits that lets the poor thing breathe.

Again, 5300 lb street car built for general hooliganism and the occasional road trip. That means trading off crazy power for longer life. It's also in my best interest to keep this thing under 6000 RPM so the crank doesn't go on vacation.

I'm looking hard at the Hughes 232/236/110 hydraulic flat cam. Teaming that thing up with some 1.6 rockers looks pretty tasty. Lift goes to .571/.582 and isn't too hard on parts. Typical lifter weight and moderate specs open up spring options.

However, I'm tempted to go with a more aggressive hydraulic roller cam like the Comp 236/242/110 .544/.541 which moves to .580/.577 with the faster rockers. The roller lifters are a lot heavier and will put more load on the springs and the rpm is a bit closer to my self imposed red line.

When it comes to racking up the miles will there be a significant difference in longevity of the components? Neither of these cams are radical but the motion is starting to get a little snappy, especially with the higher ratio rockers. I don't mind the price difference of going roller if longevity is there.

Valve spring technology has taken a big jump since I built my last motor. Ovate wire beehive type springs are doing the job of those old dual springs but I'm not sure if the action rate of these cam combos merit that type of thing. Each cam retailer has their preferred spring but there are sometimes better options available.

As for the rockers themselves, are the Mancini's good enough for daily type use or should I drop the coin for Harland?

FWIW, the set Pac 1220 beehives I had with Pac 10 degree retainers gave me 160# on the seat, 370# at .550, and 130-330 with + .050 keepers, on stock 1.875 67 915 heads. Your results could vary, don't know if that's enough spring or not. The pro magnums will be the cheap way to go steel, if you find used iskys they better be mint.... rocker arms unlimited quoted $650 to bush, correct ratio, new adjusters, and new or redone shafts. The comps were $636 when I bought them.





Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: feets] #2847240
11/16/20 07:34 PM
11/16/20 07:34 PM
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Missouri
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jwb123 Offline
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I would have to agree with some of the others, a good solid lifter camshaft with an EDM style lifter, or a grooved lifter bore for more oil, if you want around .600 lift to last for a long time. I have never ran many hydraulic lifter engines, with aggressive cams, but I read a lot of issues others have had. Built a lot of small block Chevy's and small block Mopars with hydraulic lifters around .500 lift and never had any issues. And the Chevy's were mostly jet boat engines so they got the snott run out of them, They think nothing of running all day long at 4,500 to 5,500 rpm all day long going up and down the river.

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: jwb123] #2847320
11/16/20 10:50 PM
11/16/20 10:50 PM
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Southern Alberta
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I'm trying to achieve good performance and have long maintenance free valvetrain life as well... I've ordered Comp promagnum steel rockers, an ultradyne cam that is enough for a 505 without going nuts, and morel hydraulic roller lifters on trickflow 270 heads. Excited to get it so I can see how it all works out.

Re: Valvetrain that leads a long and happy life? [Re: jwb123] #2847380
11/17/20 04:11 AM
11/17/20 04:11 AM
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I've never seen a used BB Mopar unbushed lifter bore block that needed EDM lifters or the lifter bore groove to help oil the cams. All the ones I have check, hundreds +, have over .002+ lifter bore to lifter clearances, they leak oil out of them like crazy, top and bottom whiney shruggy
I under stand that BB and SB Chevy are a lot tighter than most BB Mopars are stock shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)






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