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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: astjp2] #2846383
11/15/20 01:16 AM
11/15/20 01:16 AM

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I went with a Stage V blower manifold for my gen 2 Hemi with a Littlefield 14-71. Would like a whipple but that is just way out of my budget. Hoping to get the engine assembled next year.

Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: feets] #2846548
11/15/20 12:59 PM
11/15/20 12:59 PM
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TRENDZ Offline
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Originally Posted by feets
Why are there so few turbo and blower cars out there? I can understand class rules and such but if you're out there trying to run a street strip car it's much easier to make power and the cars are far more streetable in many cases.

Build a typical 9:1 engine making 450 hp and it'll run forever. Add 7 lbs of boost and you're over 600 hp. Slide that up to 10 lbs of boost and you're crowding 800.
Engines like this do not need exotic parts. They run fine with flat hydraulic cams and stock stamped rockers. There's little need to run them over 6000. Knowing that RPM is what kills engines you can see they lead a relatively easy life as far as internal forces go.

In fact, when rods fail it's usually on the exhaust stroke where the crank throws the piston into the head and the rod can't snatch it back down. In a turbo car there is pressure in the exhaust and that actually helps reduce the force on the rod a wee bit.

Fuel injection is nice but you can get blow through carbs all day long.

Yes, there's a little more plumbing involved but it's not that hard.

Thoughts?


All this, yet I’ve read your post about a big inch NA engine. So what gives???


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: TRENDZ] #2846570
11/15/20 01:47 PM
11/15/20 01:47 PM
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Irving, TX
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Originally Posted by TRENDZ
Originally Posted by feets
Why are there so few turbo and blower cars out there? I can understand class rules and such but if you're out there trying to run a street strip car it's much easier to make power and the cars are far more streetable in many cases.

Build a typical 9:1 engine making 450 hp and it'll run forever. Add 7 lbs of boost and you're over 600 hp. Slide that up to 10 lbs of boost and you're crowding 800.
Engines like this do not need exotic parts. They run fine with flat hydraulic cams and stock stamped rockers. There's little need to run them over 6000. Knowing that RPM is what kills engines you can see they lead a relatively easy life as far as internal forces go.

In fact, when rods fail it's usually on the exhaust stroke where the crank throws the piston into the head and the rod can't snatch it back down. In a turbo car there is pressure in the exhaust and that actually helps reduce the force on the rod a wee bit.

Fuel injection is nice but you can get blow through carbs all day long.

Yes, there's a little more plumbing involved but it's not that hard.

Thoughts?


All this, yet I’ve read your post about a big inch NA engine. So what gives???


I wanted to put the Imperial back together so I could get the project out of the way for my far more important roadster build. The plans were for a nice sedate high efficiency (relatively speaking) high torque 440. Then, we found some wide spots in the bores and it had to be punched out instead of the simple hone that was planned.
I had been somewhat wavering in the past about repowering the car. A Cummins would have been beastly but a little too tall. Gen 3s are REALLY tempting but there's nobody home at low RPM. You've got to spin them to get torque and that's not where the Imperial lives. I needed to stick with the bigger engines.
After a lot of soul searching and long discussions with some close friends it became evident that a sedate motor in the Imperial would bore me and I'd lose interest. After all, the engine has been out nearly 5 years. I've had little desire to put a low output motor back together. The car has little to no value other than as an organ donor so I might as well enjoy my car and build it my way.

I've done the turbo thing but that didn't feel right for this car. It's a plus sized model (to be generous) and therefore needs a plus sized engine. I considered a 500" engine and ran that idea around a bit. After some head scratching I figured the 512 would be a little better route. That didn't last too long. I'm building this thing for fun. Kind of a silly but functional project so I decided to get silly with it. A 543 stroker was clearly the proper way to go. It fits the nature of the build. I can still use the car as it was intended while enjoying the stupid amounts of torque that give me that warm fuzzy feeling.

In short, it's a nonsensical build for a nonsensical car that can still perform it's duties as intended. The biggest penalties will be at the gas pump.

I think it would be fun to drop the turbos on the car but packaging would be more work than I care to take on right now. This thing has power brakes, power steering, A/C, cruise control, and all the other luxuries. The engine sits so far back in the car (and the hood opening is so low) that simple maintenance is already rather difficult. The air cleaner stud is 36" from the tip of the front looping bumper (think 70 Charger). It's so far back I have to pull the engine from the side. There's a whopping 12" between the open hood and the air cleaner stud. In stock form half the plugs must be removed from underneath the car and through the fender wells. Tossing turbo manifolds on this one and trying to route the plumbing around everything on the engine and accessories would be rather time consuming.

I'm getting a lot of peer pressure to turbo the 543 but with the 4.5" stroke I'd drive it too hard. If I did manage to keep it between the ditches it wouldn't take me long to over rev it and throw the crankshaft at an unsuspecting motorist.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: feets] #2846627
11/15/20 03:20 PM
11/15/20 03:20 PM
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Yes, I'm still on my first engine and OG setup. Nothing failed in my fabbing or the engine. I am upgrading the long block this winter with another used engine with better CR and some better OEM heads. Still running the classic FAST box. Eventually it'll be a 5.7/nag1 single turbo, but I'm going to do the Coronet first since I found a deal on this 'new' 383 to throw in it.

You could have gotten that Imp breathing through the hair dryers on the stock engine years ago at this point and been very happy with it.....I've never looked closely at an Imp compartment, but the way you describe it there'd be room up front for the junk.


70 Sport Fury
68 Charger
69 Coronet
72 RR
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: feets] #2846632
11/15/20 03:31 PM
11/15/20 03:31 PM
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New York
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W/r/t "Add 7 lbs of boost and you're over 600 hp. Slide that up to 10 lbs of boost and you're crowding 800."

That sounds nice, and is repeated all over the net (even by people who sell blowers).
Their math basis:
New HP = Old HP × (ATM + boost) ÷ ATM (14.7 at sea level)
Example 1: 450 × (7 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7 = 664
Example 2: 450 × (10 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7 = 756

This is not what happens, the increase is much smaller and decays with higher boost.
More of my thoughts on my site here: http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/blower/blower.htm


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: polyspheric] #2846702
11/15/20 06:07 PM
11/15/20 06:07 PM
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Irving, TX
feets Offline OP
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Originally Posted by polyspheric
W/r/t "Add 7 lbs of boost and you're over 600 hp. Slide that up to 10 lbs of boost and you're crowding 800."

That sounds nice, and is repeated all over the net (even by people who sell blowers).
Their math basis:
New HP = Old HP × (ATM + boost) ÷ ATM (14.7 at sea level)
Example 1: 450 × (7 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7 = 664
Example 2: 450 × (10 + 14.7) ÷ 14.7 = 756

This is not what happens, the increase is much smaller and decays with higher boost.
More of my thoughts on my site here: http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/blower/blower.htm


I said that because that's what my TT440 did on version 2.0 of the build. The engine was breathing a bit better with the Eddy heads and the compressors were finding their happy place.
Yes, you end up with different power levels based upon the components used. My 60-1 wheels were low on the chart at 7-8 psi. When I got up around 10-12 psi they were in the heart of their maps. When I played around at 17 psi things were getting hot and I wasn't picking up the same increases I had earlier. Bigger turbos would have made a nice difference.

Keep in mind that when I bought them there was no readily available info on turbine sizes. That's how I ended up with T4/T3 hybrids. I had T4 50 trim housings ported to take 60-1 wheels. The hot sides were Turbonetics T3 Stage III .96 AR housings with Stage III wheels. They made for very responsive turbos but were far too small to make big numbers. Two Tial wastegates did their best to control things. Had I gone with a T4 P trim turbine things would have opened up for me and still behaved well on the street.

Things have changed tremendously since I bought mine in 2001. 20 years has been very good to turbos. You can grab a pair of cheap turbos off eBag and get all the air you want and be far ahead of my old stuff.

Just for giggles, I recently priced out a pair of name brand turbos built to spec for the old TT440. Full MSRP was not pretty but I went for all the options. More generic and cheaper turbos can do the same job.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: feets] #2846714
11/15/20 06:54 PM
11/15/20 06:54 PM
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Mostly because lack of knowledge and the cost. I would like to boost my Bee at some point. With overdrive and a little bit of comfort. Hellcat power with classic cool.

bee18.jpg

1969 Dart GTS 340
1969 Super Bee X9 N-96
1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96
2015 Dodge Dart GT
2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn.
Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: OhioMopar] #2846734
11/15/20 08:04 PM
11/15/20 08:04 PM
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Andrews,In. U.S.of A.
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Why? Seems like plenty of folks don't "want to go there", which is cool. Choose your path and enjoy. There is a lot of extra fabrication of the hot side involved since there is very little available off the shelf. If you own a Camaro or Mustang, you simply point& click and it shows up at your door a few days later. It takes a "special" fuel system ,and other carb./fuel injection considerations. It takes tuning time, be it carb. or F.I. It takes beefing up drive train parts to go along happily with the new power. I undertook the "Project" for the engineering challenge of it as much as anything. Some folks add larger cams, more compression, carburetors, headers ,intake manifolds ,etc. to add power, I get to turn a knob in my console until the need is met. I'm one of those guys who just drive it, go to car shows, and burn the tires off of it at highway speed for kicks. I'm not sure I want to add the roll bar and other equipment to race it regularly. If you like N.A. power have at it, lots of ways to skin the cat. The H.P.I have available would not be anywhere as streetable as it is without boost, and I like it that way.

Last edited by 67_Satellite; 11/15/20 08:07 PM.
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: 67_Satellite] #2846742
11/15/20 08:32 PM
11/15/20 08:32 PM
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Like I said, lack of availability of good aftermarket blocks is the main reason.....price is second.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: feets] #2846759
11/15/20 08:57 PM
11/15/20 08:57 PM
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What's painful for me to read is someone deciding to use a GMC blower (in preference to a twin screw, turbo, centrifugal) "because of the wow factor".


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Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: polyspheric] #2846883
11/16/20 08:18 AM
11/16/20 08:18 AM
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Tulsa OK
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I have been building my car with the idea/want of a power adder in the future. I don't like downtime so I try to make rolling changes to avoid the jack stand gods and that plan mostly works for me lol. But when I upgrade something I pretend I have way more power than I really do. I have 1200HP of fuel pumps, Dana 60 with 5/8" studs, Billet 1350 yokes on both ends of the driveshaft, already setup to run E85 if I choose, very capable and expandable EFI system, things like that. So when the boost bug bites for real I don't have to build an entire car.

The biggest thing I deal with these days is do I stay with my R1 small block or do I go Gen III hemi?


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: polyspheric] #2846885
11/16/20 08:20 AM
11/16/20 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by polyspheric
What's painful for me to read is someone deciding to use a GMC blower (in preference to a twin screw, turbo, centrifugal) "because of the wow factor".


In MOST but not ALL cases the GMC blower cars tend to run about what a solid NA street motor can run. They usually figure that out, then stay in the show car field.

They do look pretty awesome though lol.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: Bad340fish] #2846904
11/16/20 09:29 AM
11/16/20 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Bad340fish
Originally Posted by polyspheric
What's painful for me to read is someone deciding to use a GMC blower (in preference to a twin screw, turbo, centrifugal) "because of the wow factor".


In MOST but not ALL cases the GMC blower cars tend to run about what a solid NA street motor can run. They usually figure that out, then stay in the show car field.

They do look pretty awesome though lol.


I do agree with this. That being said, Im building a roots blown early hemi that will most likely exceed expectations.
The word “most” is key here. Most gmc blower cars are geared towards the look of performance. No real attention to the entire package.
I know it would be cheaper, easier, and make more power with turbos. I know how to do it, have the ability to do it, but the blower should do exactly what I need it to do. Turbos will have me chasing rainbows. The blower will stop me from power chasing.


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: Bad340fish] #2846908
11/16/20 09:33 AM
11/16/20 09:33 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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I don't see a lack of forced induction cars at the track at all. Most of the local street car shootout type stuff is mostly turbo and supercharged cars, mainly newer model stuff. Almost all of the older cars that run those type of races are on nitrous though, but a couple are turbo'd. Now if you're talking just Mopars, then yeah...serious lack of FI cars in the general Mopar world. At big races (like Lights out or no mercy), about the only Mopars you'll find are blown hemis.

Me personally, it's b/c I don't want to hack up my car. If I were to go w/ a turbo or procharger, there'd be a lot of fab work involved and there's very little room under the hood. Nitrous is a lot cheaper initially and I'm old school even though I'm on the younger side of this Mopar hobby. I fell in love w/ the late '90s/early 2000s style of fast street cars and they were just about all nitrous.
Granted I have a lot of money already in my big hemi, so going turbo wouldn't be as bad on the wallet if you had a cheaper motor to begin with.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2846951
11/16/20 11:07 AM
11/16/20 11:07 AM
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W. Kentucky
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^^This^^ My local track runs a street car shoot out type deal about once a month and there are a bunch of boosted cars and trucks there. It seems most are running turbos on LS engines, although there are some fast blown Mustangs and Camaros that run it. Until the race really took off a couple years ago I did pretty well with my n/a small block but these guys are really getting a handle on the turbos and their chassis now and I'm pretty much fodder. If they have a n/a class I do pretty well and hurt the big block guy feelings quite often. LOL

Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: feets] #2846968
11/16/20 11:35 AM
11/16/20 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by feets

Gen 3s are REALLY tempting but there's nobody home at low RPM. You've got to spin them to get torque and that's not where the Imperial lives. I needed to stick with the bigger engines.



BS.

My '17 Challenger has a bone stock 5.7, and it's done at 5500 RPM. I shift it at 5k at the track (6-speed, 3.92's) and it goes 14.0 at 103 on Tiger Paws, walking it out of the hole. The car weighs 4275 with me in it.

I get it, your Imperial is heavier. Hang a Procharger (or a turbo for that matter) off the side of a stock 5.7 and with a good overdrive trans of some sort, you will meet your goal.

Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: sixpakdodge] #2846973
11/16/20 11:41 AM
11/16/20 11:41 AM
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Tulsa OK
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A gen III with a whipple or Magnuson charger would roast the tires off in most anything you put it in lol.

Over in the GEN III section of the board there is a Member GHemi or something along those lines. He has a stock 5.7 with a compound turbo setup in a 75 Jeep on a C10 chassis with a 6 six speed trans from a challenger. He has run in the 9s AND he auto crosses it. Very broad powerband that he has achieved with that setup.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: justinp61] #2846980
11/16/20 11:52 AM
11/16/20 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by justinp61
^^This^^ My local track runs a street car shoot out type deal about once a month and there are a bunch of boosted cars and trucks there. It seems most are running turbos on LS engines, although there are some fast blown Mustangs and Camaros that run it. Until the race really took off a couple years ago I did pretty well with my n/a small block but these guys are really getting a handle on the turbos and their chassis now and I'm pretty much fodder. If they have a n/a class I do pretty well and hurt the big block guy feelings quite often. LOL



The tech some of these guys have is amazing. We recently entered a true street radial tire heads up class. 200 treadwear or better (might as well call it 400 treadwear). I figured low 11's or high tens would have them covered as it required the car to be stock interior, no fiberglass, no tubs, etc. and do a 20 mile drive. Traction was going to be the limiting factor so we weighted up the trunk and did some second gear launches.

The car that impressed the most was a late model awd Audi that had nice aftermarket wheels and looked lowered a little. Dude ripped off a 10.17! A TESLA was pretty close running in the mid 10's


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: feets] #2846988
11/16/20 12:27 PM
11/16/20 12:27 PM
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Aurora, Colorado
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I think packaging of where to locate everything without having to cut the car up is high on the list.
With turbos, your looking at custom plumbing, and I din't think there is a "bolt-on" kit for DIYs who don't weld.
I think the Blower engines are more common because they are easier to "bolt-on", and remove or cut the hood.
Then there is the cost, and the market segment.
A big part of the market seems to be restoration, or semi-easy and reversible bolt-ons.
For turbo engines (and Hellcat engine), I think if an owner was to goto the expense it might be towards GenIII hemi-swaps with forced induction.

Re: Why aren't there more forced induction cars? [Re: 451Mopar] #2847012
11/16/20 01:15 PM
11/16/20 01:15 PM
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On the parachute mount
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n20mstr Offline
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Lets just be brutally honest here.....MOST Mopar guys are too cheap and have their head stuck in the sand.

how many on here use 9" rears and GM based transmissions??? LMAO

Brand X racers want to go fast ......and they DO IT,

Mopar guys are too hung up on what it cost, and how much work it is. Now i will say this, YES it is a huge amount of work and $$$$ to build a FI turbo or blower car . It is getting to be the same for a "fast" nitrous car because there are a lot of thing also involved, Nitrous controllers and trans dump valves etc.

No way around it.....FAST cost money and a lot of your or someone elses time.

Not to insult anyone, just how it is.....Mopar community is getting split....Old School and New Gen Hemi school.....


....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
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