Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: 70satelliteguy]
#2826520
09/29/20 04:15 PM
09/29/20 04:15 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 511 Temperance, MI
68 HEMI GTS
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 511
Temperance, MI
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I just built a engine with a billet retainer and viton seal. Leaked like a sive. Replaced It with stock retainer and a black felpro from the parts store and its dry as a bone.
68 Dart GTS "HEMI" 10.30 @ 131 pump gas street car 3780# 69 Roadrunner 511 six pack 10.92 drive to track street car
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: AndyF]
#2826534
09/29/20 05:14 PM
09/29/20 05:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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master
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West Plains, MO
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A stock crank should be knurled. That is always the first thing to look at. If the crank has stock knurling, isn't it required to use a rope seal? Smooth crank surface gets a Viton or other material. I thought the knurling would wear away a rubber seal quickly
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Fasbird]
#2826540
09/29/20 05:30 PM
09/29/20 05:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,779 Mt.Gilead, Ohio
OhioMopar
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master
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Mt.Gilead, Ohio
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I have the billet Mancini rear main and it doesn't leak a drop of anything.
1969 Dart GTS 340 1969 Super Bee X9 N-96 1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96 2015 Dodge Dart GT 2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn. Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: OhioMopar]
#2826588
09/29/20 07:16 PM
09/29/20 07:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,264 New York, USA
Chargerfan68
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,264
New York, USA
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I have one that just got dyno time only. No leak at all. Then, one that leaks quite a few drops after a drive (my buddies car). Both billet seal retainers.
1.50 60Ft. , 10.75@ 127MPH Hauling 3900 LBS.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: 68 HEMI GTS]
#2826660
09/29/20 09:16 PM
09/29/20 09:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I Win
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Bend,OR USA
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/29/20 11:37 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2826758
09/30/20 08:12 AM
09/30/20 08:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,357 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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I Live Here
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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I always use normal Fel-Pro replacement rear main seal and the factory retainer. No issues.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: 70satelliteguy]
#2826773
09/30/20 09:01 AM
09/30/20 09:01 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,810 Sobieski Wi
bee1971
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master
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Sobieski Wi
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383/432 Stroker that I built four years ago - Zero drips - Street motor - Factory PCV and Three Nipple Breather 1971
I also use the Mancini Billet - Brown Viton Seal - Second motor that I built with great results
Seal clocked at 6 and 12 for me anyways helped align the retainer using those alignment studs
O rings on side of retainer with a little Permatex Black RTV
If I was buying today
I would probably look at Hughes Engines Retainer Kit - They have a pressure relief area built into the retainer like the factory unit
Last edited by bee1971; 09/30/20 09:02 AM.
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: 70satelliteguy]
#2826776
09/30/20 09:03 AM
09/30/20 09:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,357 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
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How many of the "no leak" rear mains also use a vacuum pump or header e-vac ??? I have 3 of my own here...one has a vacuum pump. The other 2 just have breathers on the valve covers. Never been a fan of the header evac setups.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Fasbird]
#2826825
09/30/20 11:06 AM
09/30/20 11:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,841 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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We're jinxing ourselves even talking about this stuff. This discussion alone causes leaks. It's not good to talk about it.
I've only used the ones from old MP kits and Fel Pro kits.
They have all had a number molded into them: 4227926. I had to look really closely to see it.....(It's not hard to guess whos tooling they came from).
Avoiding snafus during install + the side seals seem to cause alot of problems.
Though the white "swells up when soaked in mineral spirits" side seals never really gave me any trouble, I always thought they were a pain to install and I used up my last pair several years ago on a 440 re-ring. don't believe they are made anymore (were they asbestos or something?).
So on a modern build, myself I substitute RTV for the side seals. I try to inject it inside the groove as much as possible and also pack that area using putty knife/fingers and so on.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2826924
09/30/20 02:05 PM
09/30/20 02:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Bend,OR USA
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I have used a thin layer of adhesive silicone on the back side to hold the seals to block and seal holder and i ALWAYS use wheel bearing grease on the lip edges of the seal and on the main seal area of the crank surface I have never tried installing the seals and crank dry, NEVER
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/30/20 06:00 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: DrCharles]
#2827085
09/30/20 08:48 PM
09/30/20 08:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474 On the run…
BloFish
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I just bought and installed the Mancini rear main seal, and it solved my leak issue.
It really doesn't matter whether you win or lose… as long as you look good doing it!
‘65 A100 ‘69 ‘Cuda ‘73 Vega GT ‘06 Mega Cab ‘14 Mercedes SLK
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: BloFish]
#2827092
09/30/20 09:00 PM
09/30/20 09:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,389 Abilene, Texas
fastmark
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,389
Abilene, Texas
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I just bought and installed the Mancini rear main seal, and it solved my leak issue. Me too. Customer had a bad leaker on his motor. It was a fresh rebuild that had cam and piston problems. Just finished it about two weeks ago. No more leaks with the Mancini seal. I also bought the extra cost orange seal with the billet cap.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: ZIPPY]
#2827114
09/30/20 09:23 PM
09/30/20 09:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,712 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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So on a modern build, myself I substitute RTV for the side seals. I try to inject it inside the groove as much as possible and also pack that area using putty knife/fingers and so on. I've been doing it that way since about 1975.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: DrCharles]
#2827360
10/01/20 12:36 PM
10/01/20 12:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,750 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 25,750
Rio Linda, CA
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So on a modern build, myself I substitute RTV for the side seals. I try to inject it inside the groove as much as possible and also pack that area using putty knife/fingers and so on. I did that on my current 451 and it worked perfectly. I just made sure to get the seal holder and the block operating-room clean before applying it. RTV cures from exposure to moisture, inserting a wet pipe-cleaner into the wet RTV not only promotes fast cure but also expands the RTV into every corner of the groove.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Fasbird]
#2827915
10/02/20 02:31 PM
10/02/20 02:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355
north of coder
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there was a thread recently that showed a billet retainer modified to resemble the engine side of the factory retainer. this acted as a deflector, throwing the oil back toward the pan. i'm too stupid to know when that was, or if i did remember, i couldn't link to it. maybe someone remembers this ? help out an old doofus with "oldtimers" and CRS please.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: moparx]
#2828365
10/03/20 05:37 PM
10/03/20 05:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 636 Graz, Austria
DGS
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 636
Graz, Austria
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there was a thread recently that showed a billet retainer modified to resemble the engine side of the factory retainer. this acted as a deflector, throwing the oil back toward the pan. i'm too stupid to know when that was, or if i did remember, i couldn't link to it. maybe someone remembers this ? help out an old doofus with "oldtimers" and CRS please. Here's mine:
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: jlatessa]
#2829437
10/06/20 05:55 PM
10/06/20 05:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355
north of coder
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that's interesting. i have never seen anything like that. do you, by chance, have any pics of that pan ?
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: jlatessa]
#2829759
10/07/20 11:54 AM
10/07/20 11:54 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Interesting, I have an old pan from a 71 New Yorker with a 375 horse 440 that has a baffle at the back of the pan, "U" shaped to help keep oil off the seal.
I wonder why that wasn't used on other hipo cars, or was it??
Joe I have owned and used several of those type pans also I think Mopar started using them in 1971 on the C body cars and maybe in the BB Cordoba also later
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2829784
10/07/20 12:28 PM
10/07/20 12:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317 Ohio
jlatessa
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317
Ohio
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I think when I remove the pan on one of our cars, I may cut out that baffle and attach it to the 6 Qt. pan.
the sump baffle is the best I've seen on a stock pan too.
Joe
Last edited by jlatessa; 10/07/20 12:50 PM.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2829991
10/07/20 04:31 PM
10/07/20 04:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317 Ohio
jlatessa
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317
Ohio
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OK, I knew someone would suggest that, I agree. As far as a scraper for our cars, I'm not sure we would benefit much as they both shift below 6000.
I'll take some measurements and I know someone who waterjets, so maybe I can make a few.
Joe
As an aside, it looks like the baffles are brazed in, right?
Last edited by jlatessa; 10/07/20 04:34 PM.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: jlatessa]
#2830329
10/08/20 11:54 AM
10/08/20 11:54 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317 Ohio
jlatessa
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317
Ohio
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Here's a pic of the 187 pan...Joe
Looks like the main baffle is spotwelded, but the rear baffle brazed, maybe not enough flange or room
Last edited by jlatessa; 10/08/20 11:59 AM.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2830388
10/08/20 02:03 PM
10/08/20 02:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,841 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,841
S.E. Michigan
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So on a modern build, myself I substitute RTV for the side seals. I try to inject it inside the groove as much as possible and also pack that area using putty knife/fingers and so on. I've been doing it that way since about 1975. How has it worked out for you in all that time?
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2830691
10/09/20 10:29 AM
10/09/20 10:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317 Ohio
jlatessa
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317
Ohio
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I bought the 71 NYer from a person I knew and was from my town.
He was an older gentleman who bought the car new and was not one to lie when he said the engine was as he bought it and ran fine until he had to give up driving because of eyesight problems
The rear baffle as you see does not look like someone cobbled it together, it looks purpose built for that application.
I am of the opinion it is stock.
My 2 cents....Joe
PS the rear baffle is sheet metal, It just looks like a thick piece of steel. I had to be formed in a die specifically for that part.
Last edited by jlatessa; 10/09/20 12:00 PM.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: jlatessa]
#2830865
10/09/20 05:15 PM
10/09/20 05:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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I bought the 71 NYer from a person I knew and was from my town.
He was an older gentleman who bought the car new and was not one to lie when he said the engine was as he bought it and ran fine until he had to give up driving because of eyesight problems
The rear baffle as you see does not look like someone cobbled it together, it looks purpose built for that application.
I am of the opinion it is stock.
My 2 cents....Joe
PS the rear baffle is sheet metal, It just looks like a thick piece of steel. I had to be formed in a die specifically for that part.
I should have been clearer that I have not seen a 187 pan with any baffles in them but all of the ones i have bought and used where from pre 1971 cars I have seen both of those baffles used in later year oil pans on the Cordoba motors, but they weren't 187 stamp pans This is another good example to never say never when it comes to things car makers have done on production parts OP, do the spot welds on the rear baffle look exactly like the ones on the pump baffle?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2830870
10/09/20 05:20 PM
10/09/20 05:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317 Ohio
jlatessa
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2009
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Ohio
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No room to beneath the baffle to get a spotweld tip in there, it is brazed.
Joe
Well, so much for my eyes, after cleaning, I can see the spotwelds too!, but smaller than the sump welds
Last edited by jlatessa; 10/09/20 05:55 PM.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2832157
10/12/20 11:22 PM
10/12/20 11:22 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 625 Oakville, Wa
HOTMOPR
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 625
Oakville, Wa
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Fast fish one piece rear seal and a billet retainer with the dual side seals per side..
67 Barracuda, 470" B, Glide, FuelTech FT600, Precision, Ptc, QA1, Calvert, Smith racecraft, Afco, Dana 60. 275 radials
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: TrackPack]
#2832485
10/13/20 09:47 PM
10/13/20 09:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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I think that is a stock RB,B 1967 to 1969 A body oil pan. Not a stock 1966 to 1972 C body oil pan
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: BloFish]
#3147961
06/01/23 10:19 AM
06/01/23 10:19 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008 Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
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I am going to start replacing the rear main on the 440 in the Ramcharger, Dan at performance only did the bottom end, and I was about 15 years younder, and didnt assemble it with a rope seal, it leaks BAD!, Im doing this in the truck, thank god its a lifted 4x4, and the pan comes out easily. BUT with that said, Im a one man show, and Im curious if anyone has ever taken the main caps loose and let the crank drop a bit to aid in installing the new seal. Or will that cause a front pump seal issue on the tranny?
I have bought the Lisle sneaky pete tool, and I also plan on swaping the billet rear seal retainer with a OE retainer I have. I am also going to use the Mancini racing 1 piece gasket/windage trey for the oil pan gasket.
Has anyone ever drilled a few drain back holes in the plastic trey? I see they dont really have much of anything for drain back holes.
Kasey
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: HOTMOPR]
#3148020
06/01/23 04:13 PM
06/01/23 04:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,136 tennessee,usa
mattsmopars
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,136
tennessee,usa
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Fast fish one piece rear seal and a billet retainer with the dual side seals per side.. How many have used the fast fish one piece seal? I have one leaking and thought about going this route, but id like some reviews on how they have worked out. Matt
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: mattsmopars]
#3148311
06/02/23 09:17 PM
06/02/23 09:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 166 West Palm Beach, Florida
Craig J
member
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member
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 166
West Palm Beach, Florida
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Fast fish one piece rear seal and a billet retainer with the dual side seals per side.. How many have used the fast fish one piece seal? I have one leaking and thought about going this route, but id like some reviews on how they have worked out. Matt I am a chevy guy so I openly accept rear seal leaks are part of the OEM rust protection package.... my only mopar is a junk 440, max piston to wall forged pistons, 0.030 - 0.035 ring end gap.... after several thousand miles on the street with a single pcv valve...zero rear seal leaks... the fast fish rear main is a f-ing miracle.
Last edited by Craig J; 06/02/23 09:18 PM.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: hemienvy]
#3148342
06/03/23 02:30 AM
06/03/23 02:30 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 06/03/23 01:30 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: hudsonhornet7x]
#3148427
06/03/23 03:01 PM
06/03/23 03:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355
north of coder
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My 470 is using the Fast Fish rear main seal. So far so good. what main seal retainer did you use, and how did you seal it to the block ? did you open the retainer bolt holes to allow the seal to find it's happy spot to seal ?
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3149908
06/09/23 08:24 AM
06/09/23 08:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497 PA
moparacer
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,497
PA
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I always use normal Fel-Pro replacement rear main seal and the factory retainer. No issues. Same here. I have never had a rear main leak. Since I said that, mine will probably leak the first pass this weekend......
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119 68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152 414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: moparacer]
#3149929
06/09/23 09:43 AM
06/09/23 09:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,237 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,237
fredericksburg,va
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I always use normal Fel-Pro replacement rear main seal and the factory retainer. No issues. Same here. I have never had a rear main leak. Since I said that, mine will probably leak the first pass this weekend...... Same here, put it together than let it sit for a day to dry the sealers.
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Re: The best Rear main Seal for a 440?
[Re: moparacer]
#3149971
06/09/23 11:45 AM
06/09/23 11:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Las Vegas
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I always use normal Fel-Pro replacement rear main seal and the factory retainer. No issues. Same here. I have never had a rear main leak. Since I said that, mine will probably leak the first pass this weekend...... I had not either until recently. I had purchased 6 or 7 rear main seals during covid as I had three engines going together and always something in the works. Well my 64 had a small leak from the rear main, not a huge deal but I HATE leaks. I did not build the engine in the car originally. So I pulled it apart to look it over and fix the leak. Going back together I used one of the seals I bought in 2020. Put it back together as I always do nothing different. It went from a small leak to a gusher!!! Driving it around the block I saw it loose all pan vacuum and by the time I hit my driveway I was leaving a trail. The seal I pulled out of it was the same color and likely brand as I used. So I ordered a new seal from another manufacturer and no issues. So looks like I will throw away the remaining seals from 2020 as that is the secind one that leaked. My Predator had a small leak as well after being on the dyno and a few passes on it.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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