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Question about original engine and its effect on value #2825496
09/26/20 10:44 PM
09/26/20 10:44 PM
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V194 Offline OP
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This has probably been discussed to death but for a definitive answer/opinion.

Let me post three examples, if it makes a difference on the cars overall value.
1. Original 69 A12 car, all original sheetmetal, interior but missing the original engine and trans (Long gone never to be located)
2. 70 Hemi Ebody all original sheetmetal, interior but missing the original engine and trans (Long gone never to be located)
3. Original 70 A body H code all original sheetmetal, interior but missing the original engine and trans (Long gone never to be located)

Does the loss of original engine and trans in each case "highly" impact the cars overall value? By what percentage if any?
Does the value change if the engine is not original BUT close on the correct date?
Does the value change if the cars engine is not what came in the car? Like "originally 383 now 440" "Originally 318 now 340"

Another point of discussion might also be is original paint VS original color VS period correct MoPar color VS any color

I would further pose that other car makers aficionados may have different views than MoPar enthusiasts in many cases.

Last edited by V194; 09/26/20 10:46 PM.
Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: V194] #2825545
09/27/20 07:17 AM
09/27/20 07:17 AM
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sixpacksteve Offline
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this has been discussed to death. once the original drivetrain is gone,its gone.
alot of folks like date code correct, still Not original engine.
as far as value, thats up to buyer. whats the difference between a date code correct and crate motor?+ or - a few dollars, i guess!
if a car came with a 318 now has 440, i use to think that was a good thing. some now frown on it. Who cares? things evolve.
don't have crystal ball, but things change fast. these High dollar cars are being driven less and less.if at all.
so to take a ton of money to invest in a high dollar car, is up to buyer. but you might get a better return on stocks.

Last edited by sixpacksteve; 09/27/20 07:17 AM.

Hell Hath No Fury Like Mine
Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: V194] #2825546
09/27/20 07:18 AM
09/27/20 07:18 AM
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Abilene, Texas
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fastmark Offline
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Ok, I’ll play! Remember this whole matching numbers deal is because that is how you verify the actual engine size and HP that came in Chevy. Mopars have it in the vin number. Unfortunately it does affect value on ANY car. If a car came with a 318, that’s what’s its value is based on. A Coronet converted to an A12 is worth less than a 383 Super bee converted to an A12. A car that has the original engine is assumed to have lead a better life and kept all its parts. I’ve been doing this long enough to have seen nice cars with and without original engines. I could have bought a rare car, good color,440 4 speed, all matching, fender tag build sheet for a very decent price way below market. It had tons of money spent on it but the body was way below my standards . I really can’t elaborate. It’s not a car I would want to restore. It was restored badly. You would need to start over, even though it looked good. I did buy a desirable car, 440 4 speed, fender tag, buildsheet. Non matching motor and trans. It was completely apart and partially sanded. The body was perfect with zero collision damage or rust. I sold it for more than I would have paid for the aforementioned car. It was restored and sold at a dealership for $134,500! It was a 69 charger, so that makes some difference.

Every case can be different as well. I have two AARS I’ve owned since the mid 70’s. One is orange, original paint,no rust at all, lost its TA block in warranty, I changed the auto to a 4 speed long ago, has both tags but no buildsheet. I get offers all the time driving it around. It looks very good. The other is f4 green with green interior, all matching and 75% original paint. It has sheet and both tags. It has zero rust. I get offers on it as well for about the same money but it gets seen a lot less.

I prefer clean original bodies over the original engine. Some feel that bodies can be repaired where no one can see the repair, where the motor cannot be hidden. I’ve seen some bad cars fixed that were poorly done and gave trouble. I guess it depends on who does the work.

Oh, I like THE original color on a car, no matter what. My son wants to change the F4 green. It looks good when new. Besides there are some who like that color.

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: fastmark] #2825561
09/27/20 08:44 AM
09/27/20 08:44 AM
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Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart Offline
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Hemi engines cost more than six packs that cost more than 340's, so there is that. I like to have a close match to my non-matching cars, don't want a 73 340 in my 69 GTS so I will pay more for a closer match. twocents


The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

A-Body's RULE!
Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: V194] #2825580
09/27/20 09:50 AM
09/27/20 09:50 AM
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V194 Offline OP
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Alright let me come at it another way.
We have sitting in front of us two identical 1970 440+6 4 speed high impact Cudas.
One has the original drivetrain the other does not. Condition and detail is the same on both.
Have we reached a time where the value of either car is not significantly dependent on the drivetrain?

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: V194] #2825610
09/27/20 11:20 AM
09/27/20 11:20 AM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Originally Posted by V194
Alright let me come at it another way.
We have sitting in front of us two identical 1970 440+6 4 speed high impact Cudas.
One has the original drivetrain the other does not. Condition and detail is the same on both.
Have we reached a time where the value of either car is not significantly dependent on the drivetrain?


I would say the difference in that example is likely right around 20-25%. Substitute a hemi in the example and the difference would be slightly higher...maybe 25-30%.

Looking at an extreme example...
A lot of people have stated A hemi Cuda VERT doesn’t lose all that much percentage when it’s original engine is gone because.....there are so few examples around and only a very few (3 or 4???) have there original engines,so if you want to play in that market it is what it is. Not sure I completely agree with that.

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2825687
09/27/20 02:45 PM
09/27/20 02:45 PM
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Las Vegas, NV
6bblgt Offline
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there are too many variables to develop consistency in value:

depth of owner's pockets
depth of owner's knowledge, does he care?
depth of buyer's pockets
depth of buyer's knowledge, does he care?
quality of restoration/parts
amount of (known) rebody/restamp, what is a rebody? what is a survivor? does owner/buyer care?
VENUE is there a middle-man involved pushing the "good value" buy or sell to receive a commission?

too much "GRAY" area in the "HOBBY" is it a "HOBBY" or is it a business? does owner/buyer care?






Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: 6bblgt] #2825701
09/27/20 03:15 PM
09/27/20 03:15 PM
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topside Offline
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Like a lot of things, it's subjective to a degree, but 20-25% is probably the SWAG for cars where the engine is significant.
Like 340, 383 RRs & Bees, 440 R/T & GTX, 6-packs, Hemis, & wing cars.
To me, if a stock or restored HP car doesn't have its original engine, its engine should at least look correct.
I personally don't care much in that case if it's got the right date.
And I don't always have a problem with clones, as long as they're correctly done.
But stuff like a 440 in a 68 Road Runner does bug me, yet it seems fairly common, so...subjective.

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: topside] #2825709
09/27/20 03:38 PM
09/27/20 03:38 PM
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gtx6970 Offline
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Imo.

The rarer the car.
The less it effects it.

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: gtx6970] #2825858
09/27/20 09:43 PM
09/27/20 09:43 PM
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Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
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The bigger difference, and in my opinion why there is a difference, is that the buyer pool is DIFFERENT. There are folks who would NEVER a car that is not numbers' matching. They also tend to have the deeper pockets. Others, with shallower pockets, who still want the same model have to settle for something not matching. That just the way it is as I see it...

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: Jim_Lusk] #2825880
09/27/20 11:39 PM
09/27/20 11:39 PM
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Grizzly Online tonguue
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Put it to you this way:

20 to 25% has been thrown around: If the car in question was a $50,000.00, restored (or original) Mopar and the numbers engine came up for sale at $10,000.00...........I wouldn't pay it. And, I know of a lot of other smart Collectors with money wouldn't pay it also.

So, I think 10% is a closer value to drivetrain numbers matching. $5,000.00 for your 340, 383, 440 is still steep, but fair for both parties. The 426 can be worth more, but with the availability of blocks, heads and crate engines it has certainly come down.

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: Grizzly] #2825950
09/28/20 08:45 AM
09/28/20 08:45 AM
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hemicar1971 Offline
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Usually that is one of the mentioned things in a sale of a Vehicle. Does it matter, I would say yes it will reflect in the price. but a more desirable car that price will not be that much more do to it is already high and if you want the Vehicle choices are limited. In the last year I finally got the motor to my Challenger. Since 1972 the motor floated around and then one person for the last 40 years had it and I could never get it from him. When he finally did sell the motor it was for market value not ransom value. I really had given up trying to get it and had collected 4 other Hemis and never plan on selling the Challenger so the original motor did not matter that much to me. Now I have another motor sitting in a corner but as a mopar owner we are all hoarders.


1971 HEMI E BODY REGISTRY
Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: hemicar1971] #2825968
09/28/20 09:32 AM
09/28/20 09:32 AM
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YYZ Offline
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15-25%, depending on the model and what's in it for a replacement (date coded, correct components, or just something generic).

Having gotten into vintage guitars in the last few years, here are a few observations:

1. Some buyers will not touch anything that's been refinished or has had parts replaced. Even if it can't be seen.

2. If a guitar is refinished, knock 50% off the value of an original. Unless the original is really beaten up or weirdly modified.

3. Some guitar collectors will obsess over whether the solder blobs date back to the late 1950s/early 1960s.

4. If original components are missing/have been replaced, usually the hit on value isn't much more than the value of the original parts. For those familiar with Gibsons, if original PAF pickups are missing, then deduct what an original set of PAFs would cost, plus a few bucks.

5. If there is an extra hole, e.g. for changed tuners/machine heads, then it can be a 10-25% discount, assuming that it doesn't kill the deal

6. Replacement frets -- it varies. This is the most ironic of the criteria. If a guitar is exceptional player and has lots of mojo, then it's more than likely the frets will have been worn out/replaced over the course of 50-60 years. But some collectors would rather have a pristine, but crummy-playing guitar.

7. Hidden modifications or damage. Even if there is something that doesn't affect the playability or appearance of a guitar, it can still affect value or the deal. A friend went to sell his '63 Strat, a $20K guitar. The buyer noticed a slight modification to the routing under the pickguard, and that killed the deal.

When my friend mentioned it to the dealer he bought it from, the dealer immediately refunded his money, as he's well aware of the quirks of collectors, having an original '59 Burst himself.


I think that we are seeing parallels in the Mopar hobby. If you have a numbers matching, pristine survivor or OE restored car with provenance, and it's suitably rare/desirable, then you can pretty much name your price. The more that your car deviates from that (NOM, no documentation), the more the price drops and there will be a set of enthusiasts/collectors that won't buy it at any price.

YMMV

Last edited by YYZ; 09/28/20 09:39 AM.
Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: YYZ] #2825972
09/28/20 09:44 AM
09/28/20 09:44 AM
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Not yr uncle Bob Offline
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Originally Posted by YYZ

Having gotten into vintage guitars in the last few years, here are a few observations:


You forgot to mention the discount for a Gibson with a repaired (broken) head stock. thumbs

Last edited by Not yr uncle Bob; 09/28/20 09:44 AM.

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Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: Not yr uncle Bob] #2825976
09/28/20 09:56 AM
09/28/20 09:56 AM
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Toronto (YYZ) Ontario
YYZ Offline
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Originally Posted by Not yr uncle Bob
Originally Posted by YYZ

Having gotten into vintage guitars in the last few years, here are a few observations:


You forgot to mention the discount for a Gibson with a repaired (broken) head stock. thumbs


LOL -- according to Gibson, that's a feature, not a bug!

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: hemicar1971] #2825990
09/28/20 10:48 AM
09/28/20 10:48 AM
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Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart Offline
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Originally Posted by hemicar1971
Usually that is one of the mentioned things in a sale of a Vehicle. Does it matter, I would say yes it will reflect in the price. but a more desirable car that price will not be that much more do to it is already high and if you want the Vehicle choices are limited. In the last year I finally got the motor to my Challenger. Since 1972 the motor floated around and then one person for the last 40 years had it and I could never get it from him. When he finally did sell the motor it was for market value not ransom value. I really had given up trying to get it and had collected 4 other Hemis and never plan on selling the Challenger so the original motor did not matter that much to me. Now I have another motor sitting in a corner but as a mopar owner we are all hoarders.


Nothing to see here, no me! laugh2


The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

A-Body's RULE!
Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: Rhinodart] #2826681
09/29/20 09:21 PM
09/29/20 09:21 PM
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hemicar1971 Offline
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I like the guitar comparison. There is always that E Body Hemi Convertible Guitar. Played Hockey with a guy that sold his fathers, not even sure what exactly it was. I ask him your father played guitar what happened to you. He said it was a Scottish Band that toured some as the opener for the Rolling Stones. Never heard of them but someone in Japan did and he got a lot of money. At times in the Car Hobby Japan and Europe step in and want to play and pay big money for Mopars no matter if the original Motor or Transmission is in the Car. You will get as much as the market dictates. Just be happy you can still make a profit on these things.


1971 HEMI E BODY REGISTRY
Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: hemicar1971] #2826950
09/30/20 01:39 PM
09/30/20 01:39 PM
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Neil Offline
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I'd rather nave a nice car with original sheetmetal and a non-numbers matching drivetrain vs a numbers matching rot box with half the body replaced and all the remaining metal full of pitting.

If I had top dollar car money I would pass on anything that had the quarters replaced etc.

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: Neil] #2827022
09/30/20 05:07 PM
09/30/20 05:07 PM
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Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by Neil
I'd rather nave a nice car with original sheetmetal and a non-numbers matching drivetrain vs a numbers matching rot box with half the body replaced and all the remaining metal full of pitting.

If I had top dollar car money I would pass on anything that had the quarters replaced etc.


Neil

That's exactly how I feel too.
The last few cars I have bought came from and lived out West.
I would rather pay more for the car and shipping.

Very few people can cut a car apart, put replacement panels on it and make it look and feel right. The ones that can are not cheap.

Of course just my opinion

Re: Question about original engine and its effect on value [Re: Matt M] #2827026
09/30/20 05:14 PM
09/30/20 05:14 PM
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Eagle, Idaho
Neil Offline
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Yes, I have relatives in MN that purchased their project cars from CA, AZ, and NV. They would pay to have them shipped or take vacation days and go trailer them back home themselves. Many of the cars in and around where they live were just too used up so it was worth it to pay a couple thousand more to buy a car from a non-road salt state







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