Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2820229
09/13/20 01:46 PM
09/13/20 01:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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I put in the new pump and went for a drive. No change. Doesn't look like the coolant is moving past the radiator cap any quicker at idle either. So much for the glowing testimonials Anyhow before biting the bullet for another radiator (and having to re-fit everything again), I wonder if speeding up the WP would be of any use. I don't want to go to the 1.4 (a/c) pulleys, but the non-a/c 0.95 that's on there now may not be quite fast enough.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2820388
09/13/20 08:34 PM
09/13/20 08:34 PM
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TJP
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Thanks for the link. Interesting reading indeed... but I just went to the Glen Ray site and I absolutely will not spend $1195.00 for a "resto" radiator! I wonder if a simple recore of my old 26" copper/brass would be more reasonable... I'll ask. I'll find out tomorrow if my temps are at all changed with the Flowkooler 16-fin high flow pump I just put in Myself, I have never seen the "Magical" water pumps doe anything except trtansfer money for your wallet to the seller / MFR. I believe that is what they were designed for LOL. Do be aware that the local radiator shop may not be aware of the different efficiencies of cores made by different suppliers. Been down that road several times. If you re -read the "short" version of the story I posted, I will ask you one question. How much money do you think I lost trying to resolve that heating issue. $2,000 would've been a bargain. Keep in mind the shop overhead, wages, etc.I had to eat in addition to the parts cost as it was a customers car. I will say once again, based on your symptoms, you are either not getting enough air through the core, or the core itself is not efficient enough.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: TJP]
#2820414
09/13/20 09:30 PM
09/13/20 09:30 PM
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DrCharles
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I will say once again, based on your symptoms, you are either not getting enough air through the core, or the core itself is not efficient enough. I agree, but think it's a combination of both. (Although I did just get done reading a long thread on FABO where a troublesome overheating problem was finally fixed by driving the water pump faster...) I can definitely tell that the Contour fans and shroud are compromising the airflow... and there's not enough radiator efficiency to make up for it. Unfortunately there is so little room in the front with a big-block that I would have a hard time finding a better fan that will fit in there, nor will a thicker radiator fit without modifying the core support. Speaking of which, should I cut out the core support on the sides? I will be looking carefully at the specs for a radiator with two wide tubes (1" will fit but probably not 1.25" tubes).
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2820605
09/14/20 01:38 PM
09/14/20 01:38 PM
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Posts: 268 Anchorage, Alaska
metallicareload
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Do you just have a out of the box t stat or do you add a little bypass help with 3 1/8 holes on the outer edges?
On my last 440, having coolant bypass around the thermostat knocked highway temps way below what the thermostat was rated @ I will say once again, based on your symptoms, you are either not getting enough air through the core, or the core itself is not efficient enough. I agree, but think it's a combination of both. (Although I did just get done reading a long thread on FABO where a troublesome overheating problem was finally fixed by driving the water pump faster...) I can definitely tell that the Contour fans and shroud are compromising the airflow... and there's not enough radiator efficiency to make up for it. Unfortunately there is so little room in the front with a big-block that I would have a hard time finding a better fan that will fit in there, nor will a thicker radiator fit without modifying the core support. Speaking of which, should I cut out the core support on the sides? I will be looking carefully at the specs for a radiator with two wide tubes (1" will fit but probably not 1.25" tubes). I've been following your threads closely, as my cooling setup is/was remarkably similar: 440, Milodon 180 degree thermostat, Contour fan setup, and I have a 26" brass C-Body radiator in a 22" core support. While my cooling system works fine, I "feel" it should work better. My car runs around 194 highway to 203 in traffic. When it gets to 203 the fans on low will knock the temp down to 197 or so. I'm just used to it running cooler, but maybe the thermostat is doing exactly what it's supposed to do, set the floor of the engine's operating temp. I just thought it should get down closer to 180 degrees. I did mount the fans with a good amount of standoff, and I do have the water pump somewhat over driven tho
Last edited by metallicareload; 09/14/20 01:39 PM.
440, 4-Speed, 3.54 1968, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: metallicareload]
#2820611
09/14/20 01:45 PM
09/14/20 01:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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Yep, sounds like we have a near-identical setup! My temp switch is nominally 195 but it's in the middle of the top hose (and the gauge is in the usual WP hole). So it kicks in at 198 and brings temps down to 192 before it shuts off. On the highway on a hot day, though, it only comes down to 194 and won't shut off. Which is why I started this whole flail and didn't just leave well enough alone I have ordered an Autocoolguy PWM controller, pricey but has a great reputation in reviews. Just didn't feel like spending the hours on the bench to make my own. It will definitely work better than the simple full-on or full-off relay I rigged up. What pulleys are you using to get "somewhat" overdriven? The stock a/c pulley setup is either 1.3 or 1.4 depending on year, model, etc. I would like to try 1.1 or 1.2 but I don't think such pulleys exist.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2820634
09/14/20 02:18 PM
09/14/20 02:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 268 Anchorage, Alaska
metallicareload
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Yep, sounds like we have a near-identical setup! My temp switch is nominally 195 but it's in the middle of the top hose (and the gauge is in the usual WP hole). So it kicks in at 198 and brings temps down to 192 before it shuts off. On the highway on a hot day, though, it only comes down to 194 and won't shut off. Which is why I started this whole flail and didn't just leave well enough alone I have ordered an Autocoolguy PWM controller, pricey but has a great reputation in reviews. Just didn't feel like spending the hours on the bench to make my own. It will definitely work better than the simple full-on or full-off relay I rigged up. What pulleys are you using to get "somewhat" overdriven? The stock a/c pulley setup is either 1.3 or 1.4 depending on year, model, etc. I would like to try 1.1 or 1.2 but I don't think such pulleys exist. Wow that's wild, around 194 is where mine stays also. With the FiTech it's easy to change the fan on/off so my fans are off on the highway, but I "think" it should run cooler on the highway. I'm using a stock repro crank pulley. My water pump pulley is some after market aluminum that was about a 1" maybe smaller compared to a stock style non-AC water pump pulley. In the spring I'll see what a high flow 160 thermostat will do
Last edited by metallicareload; 09/14/20 02:19 PM.
440, 4-Speed, 3.54 1968, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: metallicareload]
#2820667
09/14/20 03:55 PM
09/14/20 03:55 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
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DrCharles
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I'm using a stock repro crank pulley. My water pump pulley is some after market aluminum that was about a 1" maybe smaller compared to a stock style non-AC water pump pulley. Could you please post a pic of your setup? I have a two-groove crank pulley with the larger front power-steering pulley (not used), and a single-groove water pump pulley driven from the smaller inner groove on the crank. The rims on both are almost touching, and if the upper got very much smaller it wouldn't clear the pump housing bolts. In the spring I'll see what a high flow 160 thermostat will do Not much, just make your engine warm up slower. The stat only sets the minimum temp - the max is limited by your cooling capacity vs. the ambient temp.
Last edited by DrCharles; 09/14/20 03:56 PM.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2822721
09/19/20 08:17 PM
09/19/20 08:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 268 Anchorage, Alaska
metallicareload
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Size difference is actually probably more like 1/2". I moved the fan settings down 2 degrees a week or two ago, and I haven't seen anything over 200 degrees since. Summer being over up here probably had a part in that also.
440, 4-Speed, 3.54 1968, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2822955
09/20/20 03:42 PM
09/20/20 03:42 PM
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DrCharles
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I've drained and refilled the same coolant several times and it doesn't look rusty brown or leave rust in the bottom of the bucket, although not operating-room pure soylent green either I thought the same (scale/rust in the core), which is why I switched from an old 26" copper/brass to a brand-new 26" aluminum three-row. Didn't make a difference. Neither did the Milodon 180 high-flow thermostat, or the Flowkooler high-flow water pump! Now yesterday I put a PWM controller on, and it stayed right at 180 during prolonged idling followed by a couple 20-40 mph miles on the back roads. Of course it's not going over 80 outside lately, whereas it was closer to 90 and sometimes higher during initial tests. I plan to take it to town soon for gas, and see how it does at 60 mph.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2825812
09/27/20 08:20 PM
09/27/20 08:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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Do you just have a out of the box t stat or do you add a little bypass help with 3 1/8 holes on the outer edges? Out of the box Milodon high-flow stat... I didn't read the entire thread, but I've personally had a "high flow" thermostat cause the coolant to not stay in the radiator long enough to exchange heat with the air. It's nearly the same issue as no thermostat, minimal restriction.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#2825815
09/27/20 08:26 PM
09/27/20 08:26 PM
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Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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I didn't read the entire thread, but I've personally had a "high flow" thermostat cause the coolant to not stay in the radiator long enough to exchange heat with the air. It's nearly the same issue as no thermostat, minimal restriction. That old chestnut won't die. That is absolutely not how basic physics, let alone fluid thermodynamics, work! Flowkooler has a good layman's explanation so I will just post it here. It's also at: https://flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/pages/why-flowkooler-hi-flow-pumps-end-overheatingHold on...doesn't the coolant have to have more time in the radiator to cool? No. But a lot of people still think so. We have come up with some explanations for the Doubting Thomas.
Debunking the I Can Have It Both Ways Theory
The water has to have time to cool argument is most common one we hear. In a closed loop system if you keep the fluid in the heat exchanger you are simultaneously keeping it in the block longer. Unfortunately, the block is the part that is generating the heat. Sending hot coolant from your source (engine) through the heat exchanger (radiator) to the sink (air) will transfer heat as long as there is a temperature difference between the source and sink. The engine is still generating heat the whole time so why keep the coolant there any longer than you have to.
Debunking The Conscientious Electron Theory
We hear that the coolant has to stay in the system longer to cool but what is heat transfer really but conduction, convection and radiation of electrons. The fluid in your system transfers those electrons based principally on the source-sink differential and the exchange material's transfer rate. An electron moves at varying speeds - Bohr's model has it moving at 2 million meter/second. But let's just agree it is fast (really really fast). Far faster than the flow rate of the water pump. Your engine coolant's electrons do not know (or care) how fast you send then through the system - they just knows that the source is hotter than the sink and off they go.
Debunking Grandpa's Flathead Washer Theory
"But wait a minute, I know Grandpa' used to put washers in his flathead to slow the flow and cool his engine." We know people did this too. They still do it but the cooling benefit is not from the slower flow but the pressure that builds from the restriction. Consider that Grandpa had two flathead water pumps sending twice the volume through the same size radiator core. In a non pressure system he likely lost fluid on the track or road. We have use pressure caps since the late thirties to remedy this.
Ask Grandpa and he might tell you his overheating woes came when he tore up the track at high speed. The overheating could be the result of cavitation in his pump due to the higher rpm.
Restricting his flow with a washer build up his pump pressure and the pressure in the block helped reduce the onset of hot spots on his cylinder walls and formation of steam pockets. So Grandpa was on to something but just not for the reason most people think. This restrictions makes sense when your rpm is excessive but it rarely makes sense normal driving conditions.
If you doubt this thinking then try this simple Ask Dr. Science experiment where you restrict the pump on the suction side; just clamp off the lower hose while you watch your temp gauge. Hopefully, you will debunk Grandpa's theory yourself before you experience vapor lock.
Restriction is not all bad if it serves to prevent cavitation. Cavitation occurs when a pump turns so fast that you generate lower pressure and air bubbles or vapor forms. These bubbles eventually implode and damage the engine block wall and impeller. Rapidly spinning the impeller can literally rip the air from water but may not actually move the fluid, it's tantamount to turning an eggbeater in a paint bucket. Restricting the fluid flow to raise system pressure in the block may help prevent cavitation at higher RPM but is it necessary for most vehicles?
No. Most vehicles do not need to restrict flow because they do not reach or sustain high RPM. Additionally, thin aluminum radiators already restrict by design e.g. fewer rows of tubes. Restrict it further and you may as well hose clamp the lower radiator hose and we know how that works out. When you face Grandpa on the track you may want your washers, otherwise, keep them in the toolkit.
Simply put, you have a far better chance of keeping your cool with a greater flow rate through your heat exchanger than gathering heat in your engine block. Edit: So whatever you experienced (and I don't doubt that your temp gauge was up), it was not due to decreased time in the radiator. The only engine I've ever seen this happen on (overheat with no t-stat) is a Mercedes diesel that had a valve on the end of the stat that blocked a large bypass passage once warmed up. With that passage open, there was not enough coolant flow to the radiator since a big part was being diverted through the bypass. Still had nothing to do with time in the radiator.
Last edited by DrCharles; 09/27/20 08:33 PM.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2825819
09/27/20 08:30 PM
09/27/20 08:30 PM
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Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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Now that it's finally starting to cool off, everything's working fine with the new controller. I think part of the problem was that I don't have enough cooling capacity to maintain temp AND remove the extra heat from 600 lb of iron and aluminum that heated up to 198F before the fans kicked on. On Friday night it was a bit cooler (around 80F). The temp stayed on 180 down 2-3 miles of 30 mph dirt road until I got to the highway, then it very slowly increased to a maximum of 184 at a steady 60-65 mph. Came back down to 182 when I got into town, and back to 180 idling in the parking lot. Same thing coming home at lower temps (74F). I'm not planning to mess with it any more this year. As I've said, the car has no a/c so I hardly ever drive it in the sticky summer heat over 90F anyway... and with the old fan switch, it never got above 198 even on a mid-90's day.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2825829
09/27/20 08:50 PM
09/27/20 08:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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Posts: 25,050
Texas
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I didn't read the entire thread, but I've personally had a "high flow" thermostat cause the coolant to not stay in the radiator long enough to exchange heat with the air. It's nearly the same issue as no thermostat, minimal restriction. That old chestnut won't die. That is absolutely not how basic physics, let alone fluid thermodynamics, work! Flowkooler has a good layman's explanation so I will just post it here. It's also at: https://flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/pages/why-flowkooler-hi-flow-pumps-end-overheatingSounds great. The simple change fixed my problem.
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