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To TQ or not to TQ? #2822910
09/20/20 01:27 PM
09/20/20 01:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
feets Offline OP
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feets  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
I'm finally getting back on the 440 for the Imperial. It's been down WAY too long and I want to get it running. This thing is being built as a cruiser and road trip machine. I live in fairly flat low altitude DFW but there's no telling where I'll end up with this thing.

The car: 1972 Imperial crew cab. 5300 lbs wet. 3.23 TrueTrac and 255/70-15 tire (29" tall) and 727 transmission. I have a 518 lock up trans and Ultra Bell waiting to go in some day.

I've worked really hard to come up with an engine build that will give me a big flat torque plateau in the cruising rpm range. As much as it feels dirty to say, I am willing to sacrifice top end power for big fat torque.I want as much efficiency as I can get out of this beast, too.

Here's the build so far:
std bore 440
Icon flat top pistons stopping .009" below deck
Cometic .027" gasket.
.036" quench with 10.2:1 compression.
Edelbrock heads
Ceramic coated Hedman shorty headers (1-3/4" primaries, 2-1/2" collector)
Comp cam 261 advertised, 218/218 @ .050, .463/.463 lift, 110 separation.
Planned exhaust will be 2-1/2" dual exhaust with X pipe and large relatively quiet mufflers.

Playing with the old Desktop Dyno software said I'd be bumping over 500 lb/ft from 2800 to 3700 and top out around 420 hp.

When the engine gets buttoned up I'd like to take it to the local engine dyno for cam break in and see what it really does.

I originally picked up an old Edelbrock CH4B intake due to the low hood clearance and I planned on dropping on one of the Street Demon carbs.

Nostalgia is tugging at my heart strings and I really long for that old Thermoquad howl at WOT.

I could flip the CH4B and pick up a Performer (NOT RPM) intake and nab a reman TQ from Summit. It would give me the sound I want and the crisp throttle response of those small primaries. If I did this, I'd slap the intake on the mill and take out part of the plenum divider.

What do you guys think? Stick with the CH4B and Street Demon or give in and go TQ?


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: feets] #2822922
09/20/20 02:02 PM
09/20/20 02:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,576
Shopping @ HoBo Fright
340SIX Offline
Doc Flappergas's Evil Twin
340SIX  Offline
Doc Flappergas's Evil Twin

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,576
Shopping @ HoBo Fright
Retro_fit Fuel Injection kit and never look back.
I did have a TQ on my 1972 340 in 1980 till 1982 it was,great till it stopped being great in 1982. It was never right again.
So put tge Holley Spread Bore replacement instead it was 100% and was,easy. Until I went with a full in crazy motor


[img]https://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee87/fast340six/sig%20pics/2840886-340SIX-1.jpg[/img]
VP of the MPM in New Orleans
73 Dart Sport 340/ 70 challenger vert. That may still get built, If I live long enough
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: feets] #2822952
09/20/20 03:38 PM
09/20/20 03:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,814
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Can...
moparmike1 Offline
top fuel
moparmike1  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,814
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Can...
If you decide the TQ route, I'd suggest contacting Scott Smith Harms (Harms Automotive) for one and not a reman from Summit.

Mike.

Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: 340SIX] #2822969
09/20/20 04:31 PM
09/20/20 04:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
feets Offline OP
Senior Management
feets  Offline OP
Senior Management

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
Originally Posted by 340SIX
Retro_fit Fuel Injection kit and never look back.
I did have a TQ on my 1972 340 in 1980 till 1982 it was,great till it stopped being great in 1982. It was never right again.
So put tge Holley Spread Bore replacement instead it was 100% and was,easy. Until I went with a full in crazy motor


I've seriously considered EFI on this thing. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I could get that legendary sound.

I'm tempted to run my old TT440 EFI manifold but I don't think it will fit in the car.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: feets] #2822997
09/20/20 06:28 PM
09/20/20 06:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,645
So Near, Yet So Far
topside Offline
Too Many Posts
topside  Offline
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Posts: 20,645
So Near, Yet So Far
I'd go with the TQ for the street manners & part-throttle efficiency & mileage, if not the EFI.
It sounds like the direction you prefer, and a bit of fun.
Putting the OD TF in there also makes sense.
I'd second the Scott Smith rebuild as well; you'll know it's been tested & problem-free.

Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: feets] #2823007
09/20/20 07:02 PM
09/20/20 07:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
GoodysGotaCuda  Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
Originally Posted by feets
Originally Posted by 340SIX
Retro_fit Fuel Injection kit and never look back.
I did have a TQ on my 1972 340 in 1980 till 1982 it was,great till it stopped being great in 1982. It was never right again.
So put tge Holley Spread Bore replacement instead it was 100% and was,easy. Until I went with a full in crazy motor


I've seriously considered EFI on this thing. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I could get that legendary sound.

I'm tempted to run my old TT440 EFI manifold but I don't think it will fit in the car.


Holley does make a spreadbore Sniper setup, I suspect it would sound similar? Nevertheless, I've done a Sniper and a FiTech, no more carbs for me. Ever!


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #2823040
09/20/20 08:11 PM
09/20/20 08:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
feets Offline OP
Senior Management
feets  Offline OP
Senior Management

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
Originally Posted by GoodysGotaCuda
Originally Posted by feets
Originally Posted by 340SIX
Retro_fit Fuel Injection kit and never look back.
I did have a TQ on my 1972 340 in 1980 till 1982 it was,great till it stopped being great in 1982. It was never right again.
So put tge Holley Spread Bore replacement instead it was 100% and was,easy. Until I went with a full in crazy motor


I've seriously considered EFI on this thing. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I could get that legendary sound.

I'm tempted to run my old TT440 EFI manifold but I don't think it will fit in the car.


Holley does make a spreadbore Sniper setup, I suspect it would sound similar? Nevertheless, I've done a Sniper and a FiTech, no more carbs for me. Ever!


You may be on to something there....

Quote
Features:

Available in 3 Finishes - Classic Gold, Shiny and Black Ceramic
Designed to deliver the signature Rochester Roar at Wide Open Throttle!


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: feets] #2823205
09/21/20 10:32 AM
09/21/20 10:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,914
Calgary, Alberta Canada
a12rag Offline
master
a12rag  Offline
master

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,914
Calgary, Alberta Canada
I have always had great experience with TQ's . . . . I would rebuild to FACTORY specs, following the steps they have for them . . . ran great, good mileage, great throttle response. But, in today's world . . .yeah, I would seriously consider an FI setup. I am thinking for next year, I might go to FI on the Sport Satellite. I should have probably done that when I first put it together . . . but that was almost 10 years ago now. The Edelbrook AVS has worked pretty good, but think I could get 4-5mpg more using FI . . . anyhow, yes, know it is more $$$, but if you have to buy a TQ and then rebuild it, and need parts, you are probably getting close to the FI cost . . .

Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: a12rag] #2823240
09/21/20 12:25 PM
09/21/20 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,283
Land 'O Lakes
RoadRunnerLuva Offline
master
RoadRunnerLuva  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,283
Land 'O Lakes
Go with the Edelbrock Performer and a Holley Sniper, then sell to me the CH4B intake.... whistling


Plymouth Makes It!
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: a12rag] #2823303
09/21/20 02:05 PM
09/21/20 02:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,894
Benton, IL.
D
DaveRS23 Offline
Special needs idiot
DaveRS23  Offline
Special needs idiot
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,894
Benton, IL.
Originally Posted by a12rag
but think I could get 4-5mpg more using FI . . . anyhow, yes, know it is more $$$, but if you have to buy a TQ and then rebuild it, and need parts, you are probably getting close to the FI cost . . .


I do not agree with either part of your statement. A properly tuned carb and ignition would be very close in mileage to a retrofit throttle body kit on a wet manifold. Maybe exactly the same.

Port injection and a dry manifold might do better, but that is not what we're talking about here.

As to the cost, how about a real world break down of the costs of each that led you to that conclusion? And are you allowing anything for all the extra labor that an FI install would need?


Master, again and still
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: DaveRS23] #2823323
09/21/20 02:47 PM
09/21/20 02:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
feets Offline OP
Senior Management
feets  Offline OP
Senior Management

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,063
Irving, TX
Originally Posted by DaveRS23
Originally Posted by a12rag
but think I could get 4-5mpg more using FI . . . anyhow, yes, know it is more $$$, but if you have to buy a TQ and then rebuild it, and need parts, you are probably getting close to the FI cost . . .


I do not agree with either part of your statement. A properly tuned carb and ignition would be very close in mileage to a retrofit throttle body kit on a wet manifold. Maybe exactly the same.

Port injection and a dry manifold might do better, but that is not what we're talking about here.

As to the cost, how about a real world break down of the costs of each that led you to that conclusion? And are you allowing anything for all the extra labor that an FI install would need?


As an EFI veteran I will say EFI will cost more.

Properly tuned, the two will have comparable numbers. The differences will be in cold start and the EFI always refining its tune for the conditions.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: feets] #2823332
09/21/20 03:06 PM
09/21/20 03:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,576
Shopping @ HoBo Fright
340SIX Offline
Doc Flappergas's Evil Twin
340SIX  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,576
Shopping @ HoBo Fright
I am good at spending others money.
They also had me at Designed to deliver the signature Rochester Roar at Wide Open Throttle!
Originally Posted by feets
Originally Posted by GoodysGotaCuda
Originally Posted by feets
Originally Posted by 340SIX
Retro_fit Fuel Injection kit and never look back.
I did have a TQ on my 1972 340 in 1980 till 1982 it was,great till it stopped being great in 1982. It was never right again.
So put tge Holley Spread Bore replacement instead it was 100% and was,easy. Until I went with a full in crazy motor


I've seriously considered EFI on this thing. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I could get that legendary sound.

I'm tempted to run my old TT440 EFI manifold but I don't think it will fit in the car.


Holley does make a spreadbore Sniper setup, I suspect it would sound similar? Nevertheless, I've done a Sniper and a FiTech, no more carbs for me. Ever!


You may be on to something there....

Quote
Features:

Available in 3 Finishes - Classic Gold, Shiny and Black Ceramic
Designed to deliver the signature Rochester Roar at Wide Open Throttle!

Last edited by 340SIX; 09/21/20 03:08 PM.

[img]https://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee87/fast340six/sig%20pics/2840886-340SIX-1.jpg[/img]
VP of the MPM in New Orleans
73 Dart Sport 340/ 70 challenger vert. That may still get built, If I live long enough
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: 340SIX] #2823362
09/21/20 04:43 PM
09/21/20 04:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,719
Home
S
SRT6776 Offline
I hate internal combustion engines!
SRT6776  Offline
I hate internal combustion engines!
S

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,719
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Here's one with 650lbft, 493 stroker with trick flow heads

https://youtu.be/oHltoJpHZn4?t=531

Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: feets] #2823409
09/21/20 07:39 PM
09/21/20 07:39 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,175
nowhere
S
Sniper Offline
master
Sniper  Offline
master
S

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,175
nowhere
Originally Posted by feets


As an EFI veteran I will say EFI will cost more.

Properly tuned, the two will have comparable numbers. The differences will be in cold start and the EFI always refining its tune for the conditions.


As someone who is fuel injecting the flathead in his 51 Plymouth, the microsquirt controller alone costs more than two new 1bbl carbs, much less all the other stuff EFI needs. I have a spread sheet going detailing most of the expenditures. But my setup can also control the ignition, something a carb can't, it will also be able to compensate for alcohol in the gas, something a carb can't. So there are some additional benefits to EFI that a carb cannot match.

Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: SRT6776] #2823423
09/21/20 08:00 PM
09/21/20 08:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace Offline
I Live Here
RodStRace  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
1st, great to hear the IMP is back on the front of the stove. Always admired that car.

2nd, I an curious why you aren't going with a stroker. The numbers you listed are healthy, but if I were to build a fresh engine with a decent budget, it would have a few more cubes and a taller gear to keep the RPMs down. 40-50 year old rotating assembly parts?

3rd, I love the TQ sound too and the 'coasting on primaries' deal. I'd really look into a dry intake with low height and long tubes to tune for the same RPM as the rest of the build (under 4500) you have talked about machine shop and fabrication equipment before. I'd imagine that you could come up with a small/huge throttle body and the intake to head plates. The tubing would be the part that would require a bunch more effort, but would result in something special. Also, having 2 TPS inputs to map properly would take a bit of time. If you use the TQ, my main concern is all the stuff that is in gas these days. Will the body hold up to warm temps (I assume you aren't going to run a 160 tstat) and the various oxygenates and other junk in current gas?

4th, Is this going to be NA? I appreciate the E heads being new and lighter. Will they be a bit much for a stock size, low RPM engine? The cam seems fairly mild, which means fairly high static compression plus mild duration, so the quench better be dialed in for optimum timing without pre-ignition.

Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: RodStRace] #2823439
09/21/20 08:36 PM
09/21/20 08:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,803
Between Houston & Galveston TX
SattyNoCar Offline
Smarter than no class Flappergass by a mile
SattyNoCar  Offline
Smarter than no class Flappergass by a mile

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,803
Between Houston & Galveston TX

Aren't there new cars that have recorded engine sounds? Go EFI but have a recording of the TQ at full wail set to 'play' whenever you mat it......... work


John

The dream is dead, long live the dream.......😥
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: feets] #2823480
09/21/20 11:06 PM
09/21/20 11:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,473
Candler,NC / Myrtle Beach, SC
J
JDMopar Offline
master
JDMopar  Offline
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J

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Posts: 8,473
Candler,NC / Myrtle Beach, SC
How about a set of long rams, with a 2bbl Sniper on each one? Now that would be different! They should fit the Imp, unlike an A-B or E body. If you decide to do something like that.....I know where there's a long ram intake with linkage. whistling

Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: JDMopar] #2823534
09/22/20 08:40 AM
09/22/20 08:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,741
Holland MI Ottawa
2
2boltmain Offline
master
2boltmain  Offline
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2

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Posts: 4,741
Holland MI Ottawa
Street Demon is a modern take on a carburetor implementing the best attributes of the Thermoquad, Quadrajet and AFB. Designed by a guy who was an engineer at Carter in the 60s and 70s. If you go carburetor go all new and get the phenolic body of the SD.


Keep old mopars alive.
Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: RodStRace] #2823544
09/22/20 09:32 AM
09/22/20 09:32 AM

R
RWG75
Unregistered
RWG75
Unregistered
R



Originally Posted by RodStRace
If you use the TQ, my main concern is all the stuff that is in gas these days. Will the body hold up to warm temps (I assume you aren't going to run a 160 tstat) and the various oxygenates and other junk in current gas?


I'm running TQs on 5 different motors right now and some of them have been installed for a least a decade. They seem to stand up to modern gas just fine.

Re: To TQ or not to TQ? [Re: ] #2823764
09/22/20 06:47 PM
09/22/20 06:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace Offline
I Live Here
RodStRace  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
Originally Posted by RWG75
Originally Posted by RodStRace
If you use the TQ, my main concern is all the stuff that is in gas these days. Will the body hold up to warm temps (I assume you aren't going to run a 160 tstat) and the various oxygenates and other junk in current gas?


I'm running TQs on 5 different motors right now and some of them have been installed for a least a decade. They seem to stand up to modern gas just fine.


Good to hear!
I don't know enough about plastics to be able to discern which are immune to which chemicals.

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