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Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get #2801438
07/26/20 05:48 PM
07/26/20 05:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,498
Chicago, Illinois
Devil Offline OP
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I'm going to be doing an entire front end buildup with QA1 parts, new brakes, shocks, and a Borgeson Box.

My 71 Challenger has the small selector shaft, and since I'm swapping it out, should I upgrade to the larger one? I'm going to also get the firm feel roller bearing idler arm. So what do you think?

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Ryan

Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: Devil] #2801517
07/26/20 09:21 PM
07/26/20 09:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
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Alberta Canada
PossessedDuster Offline
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No opinion on the sector shaft but I would recommend that you use Borgesons coupler and not the Mopar style one. I didn't and the hydraulic noise that can be heard inside the car from the box is annoying. I confirmed with Borgeson that this is the problem and they told me this is why they have urethane spacers in their coupler to eliminate the noise.

Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: PossessedDuster] #2801565
07/26/20 11:59 PM
07/26/20 11:59 PM
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So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Go large pitman.

Newer and more cars on the road with it. = longer time before they discontinue it.

Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: PossessedDuster] #2801748
07/27/20 02:23 PM
07/27/20 02:23 PM
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Texas
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
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I bought the large sector shaft, but sort of wish I had bought the smaller version. There are several lower cost options for a fast pitman arm out there for the small box and only one for the large box [firm feel].

Not a show stopper, but a difference nonetheless.


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #2801753
07/27/20 02:37 PM
07/27/20 02:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,440
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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With the Borgeson box, is it possible, and has anyone done it, to use a long Pitman arm (not "standard length")... of the length of the long "fast ratio" Pitman arm... regardless of large or small sector shaft size?


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: Devil] #2801755
07/27/20 02:41 PM
07/27/20 02:41 PM
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NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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Just so you know, the FF "roller bearing" idler arm is an assembly that you have to modify ONLY into a MOOG idler arm... FF's instructions say MOOG ONLY.

I've recently installed the roller bearing assembly into a new idler arm... feels very smooth within its rotation... hope to be driving the car this summer... soon.. with it.

Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 07/30/20 02:43 PM.

Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #2802230
07/28/20 05:49 PM
07/28/20 05:49 PM
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jcc Offline
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But the Borgeson box is already 14:1? , meaning adding a fast ratio arm and we are in the under 12:1? range, and at some point getting almost to fast for anything over mph? work
Besides that, interesting point on price/availability.

Strength wise, I can't see enough difference in real world use to matter, IMO.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: jcc] #2802283
07/28/20 08:01 PM
07/28/20 08:01 PM
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Texas
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
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Originally Posted by jcc
But the Borgeson box is already 14:1? , meaning adding a fast ratio arm and we are in the under 12:1? range, and at some point getting almost to fast for anything over mph? work
Besides that, interesting point on price/availability.

Strength wise, I can't see enough difference in real world use to matter, IMO.


I find the Borg box to be quite slow and will be trying the fast arms when I tear into the front end for some reason.. shruggy

I have a 1.5:1 steering quickener that goes between the steering wheel and the box, but the fab work to put it in is not something I want to deal with on a completed car. Swapping arms is much quicker.


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #2802400
07/29/20 08:38 AM
07/29/20 08:38 AM
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The Dark Side
Fasbird Offline
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I will be intently watching this thread. I am getting ready to pull the trigger on the Borgeson box for my '71 RR. I've heard about the feedback noise, and the reply of using their coupler for the noise is; good to know. I've also heard a couple say that at 60-70MPH, the 14:1 is a little tight and fast. Can anyone confirm or give real world feedback as to how they like their Borg box? I will be installing this on the stock BB K-frame. Thanks.

.

Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: Fasbird] #2802449
07/29/20 11:17 AM
07/29/20 11:17 AM
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Mountain View, CA
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68rrunner Offline
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I installed a Borgeson unit into my 62 and used a standard conversion U joint. Aside from needing to do a toe-n-go alignment adjustment, all good. No leaks no issues of note. Seems like a pretty good upgrade. We've see nsome teething issues with these as they came to market, so the best bet may be to have a professional shop do the install to avoid bricking your car for an extended period of time. I know that when I went to install mine I bought all 3 Pitman arms to aid the install and shorten the down time. I ended up using a stock arm since the 62's are single pivot idlers. Once I get the car back down for the next round of upgrades I'll swap the Idler to a double shear roller unit from Firm Feel and the quick ratio arm. the 14.7:1 that the box come with is nice but not as responsive as my Firm Feel Stage 2 box in my 68 with Q/R arms.

Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: 68rrunner] #2802522
07/29/20 01:28 PM
07/29/20 01:28 PM
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Posts: 10,498
Chicago, Illinois
Devil Offline OP
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I've talked to a few people about a Fast Ratio arm and the Borgeson box, and they said it would be too twitchy at any sort of speed. So I'm going to start out with the stock arms as of right now.

And as for the coupler. I plan on getting this Bergman no-cut adapter.

https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/direct-fit-steering-coupler/

Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: Devil] #2802554
07/29/20 03:01 PM
07/29/20 03:01 PM
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NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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For some comparison, the T/A box with its longer Fast Ratio Pitman arm, as well as the C-body longer ilder arm (aka Fast Ratio idler arm... used for steering radius correction L-R), has a ratio of 12.7:1. I absolutely love it... and I also have a smaller steering wheel 11.5" diameter to further quicken the response. This combination makes the steering superb... its not too fast at all in any manner... street, highway, autocross/road course... it's great! In fact, I wish I could make it a little faster... I've tried a yet smaller steering wheel of 10" diameter... too small.. hands get criss-crossed too easily when making fast L-R-L-R slalom manuevers.. but definitely faster steering yet!

I've never yet driven a Mopar with the Borgenson ps box, although they are supposed to be the same as a late model Jeep Grand Cherokee, if I'm correct, and that steering is OK from my personal experience. The thing I like most about that box is the lighter weight.. taken from the front end.

The Bergman coupler is the only way to go.

I can't wait until I start driving my Challenger ... real soon this summer.. with my FF Stage-3 T/A box... most curious about the firmness, etc. Everyone I know who has a Stage-2 box said they should have gone stiffer.. such as Stage-3.... I'll let you all know of my findings.

Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 07/30/20 02:44 PM.

Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2802586
07/29/20 04:16 PM
07/29/20 04:16 PM
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The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar Offline
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Been daily driving with a 1st gen Borgeson box now for some 7 years already on my '73 Dart. (How time flies.)

I'm still very pleased with the handling, steering effort and number of turns. I'm using the stock steering wheel on my car.
I occasionally have the car up around 90mph and it's as predictable as can be.


[Linked Image]

Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: Devil] #2802683
07/29/20 10:10 PM
07/29/20 10:10 PM
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Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina Offline
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Originally Posted by Devil
I've talked to a few people about a Fast Ratio arm and the Borgeson box, and they said it would be too twitchy at any sort of speed. So I'm going to start out with the stock arms as of right now.

And as for the coupler. I plan on getting this Bergman no-cut adapter.

https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/direct-fit-steering-coupler/


I have the boregson box, fast ratio arms (with idler bearing upgrade) , firm feel steering sector support kit, with the bergman coupler in my 71 runner (my setup for the past 5 years now) - Driven alot of miles with it on the highway, autox with it - Its not twitchy at all - actually I find it not responsive enough which is why I will be upgrading to a rack and pinion setup this winter - you guys can pm me if you want to buy my setup after i pull it out when the snow starts to fly....

Last edited by dangina; 07/29/20 10:12 PM.
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: BigBlockMopar] #2802696
07/29/20 10:51 PM
07/29/20 10:51 PM
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jcc Offline
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Let me try to keep score here:

Standard OEM PS box is 16:1
" " " " with "C" fast arm is 12.7: 1
" " " " " " " " with 1.5 quickner is 8.3:1 ??
Borg Box is 14.7:1
" " with "C" arm fast arm is approx 11.6: 1 guessing

IMO, no ratio is too fast for autocross, at over 100? on track, too fast of ratio can be tiresome/twitchy in certain cases, on the street, it can be both, this only an opinion


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: Devil] #2802702
07/29/20 11:38 PM
07/29/20 11:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 232
Alberta Canada
PossessedDuster Offline
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I have the Borgeson box in my Belvedere and it fits and drives very well. I also used the coupler from Bergman which also fit very well however I have had a persistent and annoying hiss when just off center of the box in slight turns or sitting at a red light without the wheel perfectly centered. I talked to Bergman and Borgeson and was told by Borgeson's tech that their coupler has a urethane section in the center to stop hydraulic noise from traveling through the column.

My box was put in about a year ago so not sure what generation it would be considered.


Last edited by PossessedDuster; 07/29/20 11:39 PM.
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: dangina] #2803025
07/30/20 06:31 PM
07/30/20 06:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
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Originally Posted by dangina
Originally Posted by Devil
I've talked to a few people about a Fast Ratio arm and the Borgeson box, and they said it would be too twitchy at any sort of speed. So I'm going to start out with the stock arms as of right now.

And as for the coupler. I plan on getting this Bergman no-cut adapter.

https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/direct-fit-steering-coupler/


I have the boregson box, fast ratio arms (with idler bearing upgrade) , firm feel steering sector support kit, with the bergman coupler in my 71 runner (my setup for the past 5 years now) - Driven alot of miles with it on the highway, autox with it - Its not twitchy at all - actually I find it not responsive enough which is why I will be upgrading to a rack and pinion setup this winter - you guys can pm me if you want to buy my setup after i pull it out when the snow starts to fly....


Interesting, I was hoping the fast arms would be enough. I think for my application, street car, they probably would be.

My previous daily driver was a Wrangler with hydro-assist steering, it was remarkably touchy at speed. After a week or two, I didn't notice it and grew to prefer it.


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #2803109
07/30/20 10:08 PM
07/30/20 10:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,490
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina Offline
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Originally Posted by GoodysGotaCuda
Originally Posted by dangina
Originally Posted by Devil
I've talked to a few people about a Fast Ratio arm and the Borgeson box, and they said it would be too twitchy at any sort of speed. So I'm going to start out with the stock arms as of right now.

And as for the coupler. I plan on getting this Bergman no-cut adapter.

https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/direct-fit-steering-coupler/


I have the boregson box, fast ratio arms (with idler bearing upgrade) , firm feel steering sector support kit, with the bergman coupler in my 71 runner (my setup for the past 5 years now) - Driven alot of miles with it on the highway, autox with it - Its not twitchy at all - actually I find it not responsive enough which is why I will be upgrading to a rack and pinion setup this winter - you guys can pm me if you want to buy my setup after i pull it out when the snow starts to fly....


Interesting, I was hoping the fast arms would be enough. I think for my application, street car, they probably would be.

My previous daily driver was a Wrangler with hydro-assist steering, it was remarkably touchy at speed. After a week or two, I didn't notice it and grew to prefer it.


for those wondering my steering from lock to lock is 1.8 turns - Around the city and highway no problem feels like any other car - its the quick turning in autox which feels like manual steering - it can't keep up (its a new saginaw from day one - not a used one) - I played with different bore diamaters on the pump same thing - which is why I want to go with a power steering setup - Part of it may be my car being a bbody with a big old big block up front.

Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: dangina] #2803319
07/31/20 02:41 PM
07/31/20 02:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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Dangina -- Thanks very much for the input on the 1.8 turns lock-to-lock... that's great!... but if it can't handle quick autocross manuevers... then something is wrong and that would definitely NOT be the way to go with the Borgesnon box.

You're saying that with the longer fast-ratio arms the steering quickens more to become 1.8 lock-to-lock, BUT, with those longer arms it CANNOT keep up with fast action LRLRLR steering response.

So, it makes me wonder, is the Borgenson box acceptable on a pylon autocross ... with the "standard length arms"... in quick plyon LRLRLR manuevers without any slow-down/resistance?

Has anyone else following this thread had experience using the Borgenson box through a pylon autocross... with required fast-response LRLRLR problems? That problem is known with ALL ps pumps of Federal-design ... NOT with the Saginaw design... and further with hi-winding rpms.

Feedback?


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get [Re: Mopar Mitch] #2803539
08/01/20 12:43 AM
08/01/20 12:43 AM
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Phoenix, AZ
Jjs72D Offline
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I thought that the accepted ratio for the standard Mopar steering box was 15.7 to 1, not 16. I also thought that the Fast Ratio arms reduced that number to an even 12 to 1.

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