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Re: help on front end alignment [Re: dvw] #2794692
07/09/20 12:48 PM
07/09/20 12:48 PM
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Apollo, PA.
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Here is some pics of what I have found messing with this ...control arm doesn't follow centerline of the car.

so You end up with this geometry when the rear cam is drawn in, it moves the upper ball joint rearward, driving the top of the tire out. Might be just on this car...

100_1455.jpg100_1461.jpg
Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794693
07/09/20 12:52 PM
07/09/20 12:52 PM
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this pic is where I had it. 1/2 degree neg. caster....1 degree positive camber. Rear cam all the way in, front cam In the middle of adjustment.

100_1458.jpg
Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794697
07/09/20 12:59 PM
07/09/20 12:59 PM
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this pic is with the rear still all the way in , front cam now moved all the way out...Didn't measure this time just moved it for reference but when I started I had it this way. Cant remenber the number but it is leaning more out at the top...

100_1459.jpg
Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794738
07/09/20 02:15 PM
07/09/20 02:15 PM
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moparx Offline
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would it be possible to place a shim between the lower ball joint and the spindle ?
that would effectively move the bottom out, giving you negative camber.
i have had to do that on a couple of crashed cars that were still slightly tweeked after the repairs.
you could use grade 8 washers, or make a shim the shape of the lower ball joint attaching point.
i can't say how thick to start, but maybe .093 [3/32"] or .125 [1/8"] ?
beer

Re: help on front end alignment [Re: moparx] #2794740
07/09/20 02:20 PM
07/09/20 02:20 PM
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Re: help on front end alignment [Re: krautrock] #2794748
07/09/20 02:34 PM
07/09/20 02:34 PM
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moparx Offline
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i thought i remembered someone had those, but i forgot who. ["oldtimers disease" laugh2]
thanks for the reminder !
it looks maybe a couple of grade 8 washers [like in the link] might do the trick. way easier than fabbing up a plate shim.
beer

Re: help on front end alignment [Re: moparx] #2794773
07/09/20 03:17 PM
07/09/20 03:17 PM
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Apollo, PA.
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Originally Posted by moparx
would it be possible to place a shim between the lower ball joint and the spindle ?
that would effectively move the bottom out, giving you negative camber.
i have had to do that on a couple of crashed cars that were still slightly tweeked after the repairs.
you could use grade 8 washers, or make a shim the shape of the lower ball joint attaching point.
i can't say how thick to start, but maybe .093 [3/32"] or .125 [1/8"] ?
beer


Same thinking...I was going use the bushings to offset the whole upper arm in. beer I'm sure we could figure it out say imagine a circle with the the upper joint as the center draw a radius line out to the lower joint the factor in the shim and figure out the degrees.

Funny this car was never wrecked, and all stock, except for a spindle swap. shruggy

keep the comments coming, will post the progress...thanks everyone up If anyone cares... grin

Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794784
07/09/20 03:26 PM
07/09/20 03:26 PM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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I'm telling you something is wrong. Wrong part, bent,etc. The rear cam ALWAYS draws the upper ball joint rearward. Do you have the upper arms on the correct side? I have over 30 years alignment experience. Never seen one with readings like this on a B body.
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 07/09/20 03:27 PM.
Re: help on front end alignment [Re: dvw] #2794826
07/09/20 04:54 PM
07/09/20 04:54 PM
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Right, upper ball joint rearward... tilts the top out...at least on this car.

Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794849
07/09/20 05:19 PM
07/09/20 05:19 PM
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OK, so here is the rear cam in, front cam out, camber is 2 degrees positive.

100_1462.jpg100_1463.jpg100_1464.jpg
Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794852
07/09/20 05:22 PM
07/09/20 05:22 PM
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turned the front cam in (pulls upper ball joint forward) get some negative camber a quarter degree

100_1465.jpg100_1466.jpg
Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794853
07/09/20 05:23 PM
07/09/20 05:23 PM
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Anderson, IN
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I still agree with Doug. No way possible that should give you positive camber. I've done alignments for 40+ years and hundreds of old muscle cars. I see you don't have fenders, bumper etc on car. That weight will make a difference! I wish you were closer, I love to see what you have. Sounds like you're just going to have to find a happy medium and leave it. Jeff

Re: help on front end alignment [Re: 1969RR] #2794856
07/09/20 05:29 PM
07/09/20 05:29 PM
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Apollo, PA.
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Yeah, figured I would re-set to height after I hang all the stuff back on.

Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794872
07/09/20 05:57 PM
07/09/20 05:57 PM
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Apollo, PA.
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I'm no nu-be here either, not a professional though. None of my vehicles have been to an alignment shop in over 20 years, even my every day stuff. I am new to the offset bushings though. My gut says to put both bushings in so it draws the whole arm in, not one in one out. I'm not sure how much neg camber that would give...maybe too much. This car didn't drive bad before being parked...think about that one laugh2 Probably will now sawzall

Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794878
07/09/20 06:23 PM
07/09/20 06:23 PM
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Mr T2U Offline
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Originally Posted by B1MAXX
OK, so here is the rear cam in, front cam out, camber is 2 degrees positive.


i might be in the wrong here and mis-understand what the OP is saying.
but when i did front alignments on old mopars on a older alignment machine. it wasn't that old, it did record and respond the measurements electronically.
to get CASTER you had to turn the wheel it think 20* to the right. save the measurement. then turn the wheels 20* to the left, save the measurement. than put the wheels to 0*, save the measurement and do something with the measurements to get actual caster measurement. called caster swing.
i don't know exactly what is required with the measurement because the machine figured it electronically.

to the OP are you doing this? or am i mis-understanding what you are trying to say on the measurements?

also you can't get accurate alignment #'s with the front end removed. the missing parts weigh a fair amount. after adding this weight it will lower the car and decrease your positive CAMBER #'s towards negative caber. and increase your positive CASTER #'s to higher positive numbers. for all you know you might already be getting good #'s and don't know it.
also you need turning plates, or something on the floor to ease turning the wheels. you also need them to measure the * of wheel turn on your caster swing. doing this on without anything will also make getting proper #'s really difficult.
also are you setting the ride height before starting. if the front end is to high or low this can throw off your #'s. if it's to high you will get lower positive caster and higher, positive camber. if it's to low you will get higher positive caster and lower positive camber.

Last edited by Mr T2U; 07/09/20 06:53 PM.

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Re: help on front end alignment [Re: Mr T2U] #2794951
07/09/20 09:10 PM
07/09/20 09:10 PM
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I must correct some of my prior posts....I re-swept the caster tonight several times with the ball joint all the way back, rear cam in, front cam out, 40 * sweep, 20 degrees out 20 degrees in. I am only getting 3/4 of a degree positive caster. So final reading is with the front end height set at 2" and upper arm set back as far as possible is 2 degrees positive camber.. 3/4 of a degree positive caster.
If I lowered the front end it might bring camber back. But I have a deep sump pan and want to run the 2" height. So I am going to install the bushings per the previously described, front out and rear in to gain more caster. Still not sure how it will effect the camber but we'll find out. up

Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2794964
07/09/20 09:45 PM
07/09/20 09:45 PM
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Mr T2U Offline
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i wasn't criticizing, i wasn't fully understanding the situation. that's why i made my comments.

whenever i had problems with alignments i was always taught to start at the beginning and make sure everything is proper when you start getting goofy #'s.

i want to again stress the importance of either turn tables or plates with grease on the floor. i don't see anything in the pics you provided. without this it can throw off you #'s pretty easily.

also i don't know if you are doing this but whenever i make adjustments or start getting goofy #'s i like to cycle the suspension a couple of times then re-measure everything again..


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Re: help on front end alignment [Re: Mr T2U] #2795054
07/10/20 09:04 AM
07/10/20 09:04 AM
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Apollo, PA.
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I have two old pieces of linoleum flooring that are greased between, you can kind of see them in the last pic. up next step is in stall the bushings and see what the results are. The feedback is appreciated...
You're right when I did move them for the picture purposes there was no plates. Any time the gauge is on it I have the plates under it.

Last edited by B1MAXX; 07/10/20 09:12 AM.
Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2795489
07/11/20 02:22 PM
07/11/20 02:22 PM
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Here is what I have found:
1. Typical factory settings I have always been able to dial in. This is the first car of mine with a non original height spindle. This is the 70's disc b-body spindle which was taller than the original one that it replaced
2. The factory geometry runs one way, more caster more camber. At least on this car.
3. The factory settings were not achievable. too much camber. It was close, but I didn't want the factory settings anyway, 0-3/4*positive camber and 0-1*negative caster.
4. getting negative camber along with positive caster is a tough one. Using offset bushings I was able to get 1.5 degrees positive caster but the camber was still positive. The issue is you already have the rear cam and offset bushing so that the rear of the arm is in as far as it will go. So the only way of pulling the camber back is to bring the front in from max out.Which starts to draw the caster back also.
5. shimming the lower ball joint with washers was they only last solution, reducing camber with out losing caster.
6. Unless you are pushing the max adjustment the offset bushings don't help much, mine where only required in the rear position even though I put them in both.. It allowed more inward movement of the rear of the arm beyond that of the factory cam. Because I had to wind the front in from max out to reduce positive camber it just changes the position of the cam based on the offset of the bushing, when you get to your acceptable trade off, camber for caster and vise versa.The sweet spot would have been achievable with a straight front bushing also.

My very good friend has an alignment rack in his auto repair business, but after deliberation, once the car is on the road we believe we will find the same result.

Last edited by B1MAXX; 07/11/20 02:24 PM.
Re: help on front end alignment [Re: B1MAXX] #2795554
07/11/20 05:23 PM
07/11/20 05:23 PM
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must be the way the earlier cars are designed. or maybe 66-67 specifically..
like i said, I put firm feel upper arms on my 67 Coronet, and it had the taller spindle for disc brakes on it already so I kept them. With the cams adjusted the way you started out I had visible positive Camber, to adjust that out I lost some of the Caster but I ended up at 2.5* Caster and got to -.25* Camber on the Pass side.
The Driver side had a little better numbers so I adjusted some Pos Caster and some Neg Camber out to get that side to match the Pass side.

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