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Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2786606
06/17/20 09:41 PM
06/17/20 09:41 PM
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Morrow, OH
markz528 Offline OP
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So it met my minimum expectations for power. It likes timing! Gained 60 hp going from 28 to 30 degrees. Kept getting good gains including at 36 degrees - that surprised me. Since we were running C14 fuel, Tony did not want to go higher. Probably would have gained more. My headers would not work (2 1/8 - 2 1/4 step) and the shop headers were larger diameter than mine.

Have 2 problems. Pulling a lot of oil through the vacuum pump. We now think the push rod oiling is spraying oil between the baffle and suction hole. They will make a new baffle tomorrow. The second problem is that at least one row of head studs are too short. 2 to 3 threads are not engaged in the nut. These were pretty expensive Koffel ARP studs specific for the application so that is quite disappointing.

I was not shooting for maximum horsepower. I wanted a balance for reliability and I think we hit the goal. The cam is not super crazy. .847/.825 lift 285/296 duration @ 0.050" 112 lobe separation. Compression is 15.22:1. Heads flowed 460 on the intake @ .850 and exhaust was 318.

Final numbers were 1058 hp @ 7200 rpm and 838 torque @ 6200 rpm. Horsepower falls off pretty quick after 7200 rpm.


Attached PDF document
dyno.pdf (57 downloads)
Last edited by markz528; 06/17/20 09:42 PM.

67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2786621
06/17/20 10:28 PM
06/17/20 10:28 PM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Big congrats. Those step headers might well outshine the dyno pipes. You will have one BAD B BODY!!!!


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2786678
06/18/20 07:56 AM
06/18/20 07:56 AM
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n20mstr Offline
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Originally Posted by markz528
So it met my minimum expectations for power. It likes timing! Gained 60 hp going from 28 to 30 degrees. Kept getting good gains including at 36 degrees - that surprised me. Since we were running C14 fuel, Tony did not want to go higher. Probably would have gained more. My headers would not work (2 1/8 - 2 1/4 step) and the shop headers were larger diameter than mine.

Have 2 problems. Pulling a lot of oil through the vacuum pump. We now think the push rod oiling is spraying oil between the baffle and suction hole. They will make a new baffle tomorrow. The second problem is that at least one row of head studs are too short. 2 to 3 threads are not engaged in the nut. These were pretty expensive Koffel ARP studs specific for the application so that is quite disappointing.

I was not shooting for maximum horsepower. I wanted a balance for reliability and I think we hit the goal. The cam is not super crazy. .847/.825 lift 285/296 duration @ 0.050" 112 lobe separation. Compression is 15.22:1. Heads flowed 460 on the intake @ .850 and exhaust was 318.

Final numbers were 1058 hp @ 7200 rpm and 838 torque @ 6200 rpm. Horsepower falls off pretty quick after 7200 rpm.



SOunds great, Congrats on going over 1000

The studs you talk about....LOL when I saw that on mine, I called ARP they told me they were the correct length. I told them ...NO they are too short. I just ordered the correct length individually. YOu wonder how they sell a "set:" that has 10? that are a lil too short.

The Intake we are all using flat out sucks....whats it going to take for BRODIX to make an intake that works?? These heads are 30+ year old tech, they were great when people were building 470"? motors with stock blocks. Come on now, we need an update LOL

who made the cam?


....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: n20mstr] #2786686
06/18/20 08:28 AM
06/18/20 08:28 AM
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440Jim Offline
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Originally Posted by n20mstr
Originally Posted by markz528
The second problem is that at least one row of head studs are too short. 2 to 3 threads are not engaged in the nut.


The studs you talk about....LOL when I saw that on mine, I called ARP they told me they were the correct length. I told them ...NO they are too short. I just ordered the correct length individually. YOu wonder how they sell a "set:" that has 10? that are a lil too short.
What was the length supplied, and what length was needed?
Pic for example:

B1_HeadStuds_dim.jpg
Last edited by 440Jim; 06/22/20 10:55 AM. Reason: Added example picture with lengths

1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2786712
06/18/20 09:38 AM
06/18/20 09:38 AM
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Nice power numbers!!

Looking at the sheet...... it appears there were some issues with the fuel flow measurements.
Neither the fuel flow or bsfc numbers make any sense.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: fast68plymouth] #2786749
06/18/20 11:34 AM
06/18/20 11:34 AM
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Morrow, OH
markz528 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Nice power numbers!!

Looking at the sheet...... it appears there were some issues with the fuel flow measurements.
Neither the fuel flow or bsfc numbers make any sense.


I have not had time to digest that yet - have barely looked at the dyno sheet and I only have 2 runs printed thus far. They are making headway on the oil getting sucked in by the vacuum pump and they will replace the studs. I do not know the length of the studs - but this is a Koffel stud kit and it should be correct!

The cam is a special grind by comp cams.

I am real pleased that here were zero oil leaks. And I love my valve covers! How many B1 motors do you see with M/T cast valve covers? laugh


Dyno.jpg

67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2786769
06/18/20 12:30 PM
06/18/20 12:30 PM
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Las Vegas
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The stud iusse is nothing new, it will depend on what block is being used to get full engagement there. Seems the uniformity of that depth varies, had the same problem with my Predator too.

There is a lot of oil in the top of a B1. I have always run a very small restrictor. Also you will likely find the baffle does not accomplish what you want, but hopefully it does. On the dragster we went to the baffled Moroso oil cap after trying a few other things like baffles etc on the cast covers. On sheet melat we move the pickup point and use a star baffle with some wadded wire.

FWIW my 525 liked 36 degrees as does our dragster.

Here is the breather we went with, works great next to no oil, just enough to lube pump and mostly just condensation.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/68788/10002/-1

[Linked Image]


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: Al_Alguire] #2786815
06/18/20 01:53 PM
06/18/20 01:53 PM
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Morrow, OH
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Thanks for all the feedback. We think we have a fix for the 2 issues.

First, the fuel flow sensor is bad. New one is on order.

As far as stud length, I gave them permission to pull the studs out of the block to fix the nut thread engagement issue. After pulling the studs out of the block, we still have more than 2 x stud diameter so that is quite healthy. Right now we have around 1" thread engagement. I consider this solved.

After further research, they found WAY too much oil on the top end. They found that there are 2 holes in the lifter and one is supposed to be plugged. He said that they normally come plugged, but these did not and they missed it. He said that was basically flooding the valve covers.

So good news and got my fingers crossed that we are past the issues.


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: Al_Alguire] #2786860
06/18/20 03:18 PM
06/18/20 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
The stud iusse is nothing new, it will depend on what block is being used to get full engagement there.

Right, depends on the block. This is from my KB aluminum block (used with 440-1 heads). Notice the long coarse thread for extra thread engagement in the aluminum block. His also were made with that "stand off" on the coarse end (about 0.130" long) to gently touch the bottom of the holes. Ken told me the hole depth is more accurate on his blocks than the threaded length. The fine thread end (for the nuts) have the ARP "quick start" rounded end.

It is just a shame that the stud kit for a cast iron block (arranged by Koffel's with ARP?) don't have the best coarse thread length & overall length to work with the B1 heads.
It would be informative to know what N20mstr ordered for his engine.

Head_Stud_KB440-1.jpg

1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2786864
06/18/20 03:35 PM
06/18/20 03:35 PM
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Quote
They found that there are 2 holes in the lifter and one is supposed to be plugged.


It’s always something.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2787019
06/19/20 08:51 AM
06/19/20 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by markz528
After further research, they found WAY too much oil on the top end. They found that there are 2 holes in the lifter and one is supposed to be plugged. He said that they normally come plugged, but these did not and they missed it.
Oil control to the heads on B1 engines is important. Are you going to do more dyno pulls after fixing the excess oil flow? It would be interesting if there is a noticeable horsepower increase, or just better control of oil.

My guess was 1065, so if the oil control gives you 5-7 hp I will be real close. LOL smile


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: 440Jim] #2787021
06/19/20 09:03 AM
06/19/20 09:03 AM
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On my B1 deal, im oiling through the pushrods with an Indy Maxx block. I drilled each lifter and then drilled through the rear china wall. that's all plumbed to each lifter, BUT its all restriced with one .050 jet. Works well and I get literally NO oil in my catch can. After 5 passes all that came out is like 10 drops of water.


....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: n20mstr] #2787109
06/19/20 01:17 PM
06/19/20 01:17 PM
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Ours have been restricted to .029" and not any issues with rockers or springs. In fact the original rockers are still in the 525 with well north of 1000 passes onthem .Only replaced springs between freshen ups once usually at 200-220 laps only to error on the side of caution. They always pulled well when taken off honestly. Never broke one either. Had 1080 open pressure, usually were at 1045-55 when pulled. There is still a take off set on my Camaro now that's street driven and raced on occasion.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: Al_Alguire] #2787908
06/21/20 09:11 PM
06/21/20 09:11 PM
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markz528 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
Ours have been restricted to .029" and not any issues with rockers or springs. In fact the original rockers are still in the 525 with well north of 1000 passes onthem .Only replaced springs between freshen ups once usually at 200-220 laps only to error on the side of caution. They always pulled well when taken off honestly. Never broke one either. Had 1080 open pressure, usually were at 1045-55 when pulled. There is still a take off set on my Camaro now that's street driven and raced on occasion.


Al - how much cam does the motor have? I only have 813 lbs @ max lift.


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: Al_Alguire] #2787942
06/21/20 11:55 PM
06/21/20 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
Ours have been restricted to .029" and not any issues with rockers or springs. In fact the original rockers are still in the 525 with well north of 1000 passes onthem .Only replaced springs between freshen ups once usually at 200-220 laps only to error on the side of caution. They always pulled well when taken off honestly. Never broke one either. Had 1080 open pressure, usually were at 1045-55 when pulled. There is still a take off set on my Camaro now that's street driven and raced on occasion.


Tony and Al, do you have any pics of what you did to the oiling system?


Alan Jones
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2787974
06/22/20 07:33 AM
06/22/20 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by markz528
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Nice power numbers!!

Looking at the sheet...... it appears there were some issues with the fuel flow measurements.
Neither the fuel flow or bsfc numbers make any sense.


I have not had time to digest that yet - have barely looked at the dyno sheet and I only have 2 runs printed thus far. They are making headway on the oil getting sucked in by the vacuum pump and they will replace the studs. I do not know the length of the studs - but this is a Koffel stud kit and it should be correct!

The cam is a special grind by comp cams.

I am real pleased that here were zero oil leaks. And I love my valve covers! How many B1 motors do you see with M/T cast valve covers? laugh



Is it me or are THE WATER LINES MIXED-UP!!!??? One side feeds the head first the other feads the block conventionally.

Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: LA360] #2787978
06/22/20 07:48 AM
06/22/20 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by LA360
Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
Ours have been restricted to .029" and not any issues with rockers or springs. In fact the original rockers are still in the 525 with well north of 1000 passes onthem .Only replaced springs between freshen ups once usually at 200-220 laps only to error on the side of caution. They always pulled well when taken off honestly. Never broke one either. Had 1080 open pressure, usually were at 1045-55 when pulled. There is still a take off set on my Camaro now that's street driven and raced on occasion.


Tony and Al, do you have any pics of what you did to the oiling system?


I have pics, but cant get them on here. Its two dist blocks, one in 8 out. Every lifter bore is drilled and tapped for 1/8 pipe thread, they have -3 fittings. they are plumbed with 3/16 brake tubing. The inlet has a single .050 nitrous jet restricting it. works really well so far.

Also I noticed on his engine there are no drains up front. My heads are tapped front and rear for oil drains to get it back to the pan.


Last edited by n20mstr; 06/22/20 07:49 AM.

....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: markz528] #2788111
06/22/20 02:33 PM
06/22/20 02:33 PM
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I would have tested, raised up the RPM until it was going down on HP more to make sure it hadn't stop gaining HP, I have seen other motor start down at a lower RPM and then go back up after 100 or 200 RPM and gain more power for another 600 to 900 RPM shockshruggy work

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 06/22/20 02:33 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: Cab_Burge] #2788136
06/22/20 03:36 PM
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Cab, don't you think the dyno operator had it covered?
6900 and 7200 rpm horsepower was nearly identical

Dyno_numbers.JPG

1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update [Re: 440Jim] #2788324
06/23/20 01:30 AM
06/23/20 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 440Jim
Cab, don't you think the dyno operator had it covered?
6900 and 7200 rpm horsepower was nearly identical

That is exactly what I'm saying , it went down and back up and down again, I would have liked to see another 200 to 400 rpm higher tests to make sure it wasn't going to come back up again shruggy
I have no hands on experience with B! or B1MC motors yet so I'm looking really closely at all the information I can see luck


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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