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Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: 440Jim] #2774327
05/13/20 07:51 PM
05/13/20 07:51 PM
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Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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I checked the cc on the piston by wrapping it with saran-wrap, then packing tape and then sliding it down into my 4.360 ring compressor to keep it level and still. I put my 20cc's in my syringe and it took 20cc to fill it up. I can't control the bubble effect that goes above the surface but that would only account for 1 or 2cc's so they are at least 13cc's.

My 3 options are:
- Deck the block or use .020 head gasket
- Surface the heads (Scott Koffel said .006 was worth 1cc so I'd have to take off .060 and .060 off the intake)
- Remake pistons

I hate having to wait another 6 or so weeks but I think that is the option that makes the most sense.

Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774349
05/13/20 09:03 PM
05/13/20 09:03 PM
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I can't tell you which way to go, it is your decision.
But from my limited experience, you don't need the valve reliefs as deep as your's are spec'd.
FWIW:
My 440-1 setup is not the same as your B1-MC, but I was running a cam with 0.750" lift, 279/290 duration at 0.050", 112 LSA, installed intake CL 108.
My piston to valve clearance came out to 0.155"/0.231" (int/exh) with 0.014"/0.020" cold lash for checking purposes. Again, valve relief depths were 0.290"/0.265"


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: 440Jim] #2774355
05/13/20 09:55 PM
05/13/20 09:55 PM
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All the B1 and B1-MC pistons I've seen had really deep valve reliefs in them, all of them work
I'll be going through this process, having pistons made, on one of my B1 headed motors, hopefully this summer if we can get our country out of this mess with the economy and parts making problems luck


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774356
05/13/20 09:57 PM
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If you use the .020 head gaskets what piston to head clearances will you have? Allso what compression ratio?


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2774438
05/14/20 09:15 AM
05/14/20 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
All the B1 and B1-MC pistons I've seen had really deep valve reliefs in them, all of them work
It would be helpful if somebody with B1 heads could post actual piston to valve clearance with known valve reliefs and cam specs, since that plays a big part in P2V.


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: 440Jim] #2774480
05/14/20 12:03 PM
05/14/20 12:03 PM
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WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Here are the details of the Drag Week 572 B1 motor I built:

11.3:1 compression for pump gas and then 600-750 Nitrous

Diamond Pistons 1.32 compression height and 24.2cc dish, valve depth at 90* intake: 330 and exhaust 270 picture of card and order form below

Cam designed by Monte Smith for this motor: .824/.789 lift with 1.75 pair T&D rockers (.471/.451 lobe lift), 279/294 duration, 112 Intake center line, 115 lob separation cam card pic below

I didn't write down the exact minimum clearance because I had more than .150 at 10 before and 10 after. Since we had a Jessel belt drive and we could adjust the cam degree easliy we did check it at a few different places but left the cam installed at 112.

For my pistons we didn't spec the valve pockets, we just used an off the shelf piston part #, changed the ring pack and told them to adjust valve pockets for B1 heads but they were supposed to keep the 4cc to keep 12:1 compression target. I'm guessing they may need to put a little dome on top side of the piston or they may want to decrease compression height from 1.480"

Michael1.jpgMichael2.jpg
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774507
05/14/20 01:26 PM
05/14/20 01:26 PM
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Do you know how much piston to head clearances you have across the tops of the pistons?
If not, you should :scope :twocents
I use to believe that the old adage of .035 minimum with steel rods was good until I found out ii isn't whiney realcrazy I like and use .040 minimum now with steel rod motors up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774509
05/14/20 01:27 PM
05/14/20 01:27 PM
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Since that Drag Week B1 engine had over 0.150" P2V with 0.330"/0.270" deep valve pockets, I don't see the need for the -13cc pockets they put on your pistons (0.372"/0.312").


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: 440Jim] #2774512
05/14/20 01:34 PM
05/14/20 01:34 PM
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Those reliefs look pretty typical to me for a B1 head. Part of your issue is going to be the smaller bore which will cause those reliefs to take up a lot of real estate. I don't think if you ask Scott he would say that small bore is ideal for those heads by any means. What compression ratio are you shooting for. Typically you should end up with a net zero piston or close once the reliefs are countered by a small dome to get a typical "race engine" compression, for me that mean 15ish to 1 fwiw. I have done some 12/13-1 stuff like my Valiant was, piston looked pretty much like yours do, valve reliefs around 13-18 and flat top. You will end up with somewhere around that 13-18cc relief and be 12/13ish to 1 depending on how small the chamber is. I don't have those pics handy. Also did a B1 original that came in at 14-1, again sorry no pics. But similar to yours with a -10.45 CC piston in a 4.500" bore and a 63.1cc chamber with a .043"

Most my pictures these days are on photobucket and lost to me forever but have a couple on my phone.

This is a CP piston for 15-1 B1 deal. It is at +.8 CC's figuring relief and dome. 63.3cc chamber and a .038" gasket.

[Linked Image]

Next is a similar piston from Diamond again 15.2-1 bit larger chamber as they had been softened 84cc. Again though similar net CC's

[Linked Image]



"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

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Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2774573
05/14/20 04:34 PM
05/14/20 04:34 PM
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Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Do you know how much piston to head clearances you have across the tops of the pistons?
If not, you should :scope :twocents
I use to believe that the old adage of .035 minimum with steel rods was good until I found out ii isn't whiney realcrazy I like and use .040 minimum now with steel rod motors up


Still don't have the rod to measure but they should be .020 in the hole and .040 head gasket, so should have .060.

Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2774685
05/14/20 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WadeMetzinger
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Do you know how much piston to head clearances you have across the tops of the pistons?
If not, you should :scope :twocents
I use to believe that the old adage of .035 minimum with steel rods was good until I found out ii isn't whiney realcrazy I like and use .040 minimum now with steel rod motors up


Still don't have the rod to measure but they should be .020 in the hole and .040 head gasket, so should have .060.

Use some strips of modeling clay to make sure up scope twocents
1/4 inch thick by 1/4 inch wide laid across the piston valve reliefs and maybe some (2) laid across the piston tops front to rear also scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2778270
05/26/20 08:53 AM
05/26/20 08:53 AM
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Just to let everyone know I made a few runs Friday nite with the old manifold with spacers car went 4.74 @145 changed to the one piece manifold car went 4.74 @145 so it is no better, but it does look better and is a lot easier to install.

Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: challenger1320] #2778433
05/26/20 05:41 PM
05/26/20 05:41 PM
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WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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GRP Rod finally arrived on Friday so I mocked up the motor and check piston to Deck and it was .025. which makes sense since the deck on the block is 10.725.

Currently the plan is to mill the heads .036 and get the cambers down to 65cc and then use a .027 head gasket and that will get my compression to 12.36:1. This will also keep my piston to head clearance safe at .052. (i'll wait to see how the intake lines up before milling it)

This evening I plan on installing the cam and checking P to V clearance for several different install locations.

Rods1.jpgRods2 - Copy.jpg
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2778446
05/26/20 06:06 PM
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Reading this about your B1 build has me itching to start building one of mine work grin
I really should wait until the chassis, fibreglas parts and body work is done though shruggy
Knowing me I would put it in my S/P Cuda instead of waiting to put it in the Dart like I'm planning on tsk


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2780315
06/01/20 12:34 PM
06/01/20 12:34 PM
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WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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This weekend I put a rod, piston and cam in the motor and installed the Jessel belt drive to check Piston to Valve clearance at 108 as well as 2 and 4 degrees advance and 2 and 4 degrees retard in case I ever wanted to adjust it but initially planning to install at 108. With no head gasket, Intake was closest at 10* ATDC with .118 clearance and Exhaust was closest at 12* BTDC with .150.

I’m dropping off the head to have .036 - .040 taken off the deck and then I’m going to use a .027 Cometic head gasket so that will take .013 away from those clearances but that will be plenty of room.

I’ve never used these 3,3,9mm rings before, wow are they thin and delicate… I put the oil rings on just to hold the piston in the hole and I’m going to have to be really careful when installing because it’s going to be very easy to roll one of the oil ring when installed and I’m not sure I would know until after the motor was together…

Here are a few pictures of the T&D 1.7 rockers. I went with the single shaft rather than the paired rockers. Koffel assured me they would hold up and it would save a little $ and enable me to use standard through the block oiling.

As you can see the studs are machined down to allow the oil to travel through the shafts and you can see on the bottom of the hold down block where it’s been machined to accept the oil from the block oil passage and then feed the shaft which will feed the rockers and push rod cups. I will put .060 restrictors in the head to control the oil (I’m also dropping the cam off to the machine shop to have the groove the #4 journal for full time oiling to the heads/rocker)

The lifter bore on the KB block are .905 and the BAM lifters are .904 so they are on the tight side. I test fitted the lifters in each of the bore and you have to be perfectly straight to get them to go in and a couple of them are a little snug. I’m thinking that will be ok as the aluminum will grow with heat but I’m going to discuss it with my machinist to make sure he’s in agreement.

Also dropping off the rotating assembly to be balanced. Once that is done, I should be able to put the motor together, hoping to make some races in July (NHRA SST double divisional at Topeka is my goal)

Ordering MT front runners and slick this week as well as the APD Max Speed carb (ouch $).

The tranny was fine but it had a ton of passes on the 1.80 straight cut gears so I picked up a new set and it's getting put together so the tranny will be fresh and ready to go.

I also put a new set of Richmond 4.56 Pro gears in the Dana 60. Nothing wrong with them but they had 10 years on them so preventative maintenance.

Rocker1.jpgRocker3.jpgRocker2.jpgRocker4.jpg

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Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: WadeMetzinger] #2780321
06/01/20 12:45 PM
06/01/20 12:45 PM
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Wade we ran common shaft T&D's ont he B1 in the dragster, not because I wanted to but KB screwed up the block(was to bu pushrod oil and 55MM, they did non rushrod and 54) so we had no choice. Never had an issue with anything in the valvetrain that way. Engine made 1020 and went 7.30's here in Vegas in the Racetech. I would nto worry much about the rockers..AS for clearance yeah you got a TON of room smile


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: Al_Alguire] #2780910
06/02/20 09:53 PM
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Morrow, OH
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Tony Bischoff (BES) did a great job on my intake. They cut the flanges off and welded new ones. You can't tell. And everything is o ringed including the valley pan.


IMG_4603.JPG
Last edited by markz528; 06/02/20 10:33 PM.

67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: markz528] #2781024
06/03/20 11:37 AM
06/03/20 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by markz528
Tony Bischoff (BES) did a great job on my intake. They cut the flanges off and welded new ones. You can't tell. And everything is o ringed including the valley pan.
O-rings for the intake ports will be nice.
What is the port opening dimensions on your setup? 2.70" x 1.65" ish?


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: 440Jim] #2781026
06/03/20 11:43 AM
06/03/20 11:43 AM
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Tulsa, Ok
WadeMetzinger Offline OP
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Question for you guys that have build KB and B1 motors, did you helicoil any of the threads in the heads or the block?

Re: 508” KB – B1 build [Re: 440Jim] #2781033
06/03/20 12:11 PM
06/03/20 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 440Jim
Originally Posted by markz528
Tony Bischoff (BES) did a great job on my intake. They cut the flanges off and welded new ones. You can't tell. And everything is o ringed including the valley pan.
O-rings for the intake ports will be nice.
What is the port opening dimensions on your setup? 2.70" x 1.65" ish?


Don't know..........


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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