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max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? #2776987
05/22/20 11:19 AM
05/22/20 11:19 AM
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Posts: 1,319
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Diplomat360 Offline OP
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Hi Everyone,

Starting to make some progress on my W2 long valve stroker SB build.

I had originally acquired Comp Cams #930 springs for this setup, given that with the long valve W2 config (with my Manley valves 11702-8 intake and 11703-8 exhaust) I was aiming for a 1.900" spring installed height.

Well, as it turns out the actual installed height (since I'm using spring locators to positively center off of the guide) gets me in the range of 1.860 - 1.870" on the intake side and 1.810-1.820" on the exhaust side. Subsequently the 930 spring pressure at the lower end of this (so 1.810) is a hefty 180 lbs, I think that's just seems like too much.

In my previous conversations with them I was given the following range of pressures the lifter could handle:
SEAT (closed) : 110-160 lbs
LOBE (open) : 280-485 lbs

I called Comp Cams yesterday, the guy I spoke with agreed, it was a bad idea to run that much pressure on the seat with their hydraulic roller lifter.

Before I splurge on replacement parts (978 and matching retainers) I'm curious what you guys make of it? There is always that chance that Comp Cams just wants to sell more parts, right? down

Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777022
05/22/20 01:36 PM
05/22/20 01:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,496
New York
polyspheric Offline
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polyspheric  Offline
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New York
Yes, phone people are supposed to encourage solving problems with purchases.

The maximum seat pressure is greatly affected by how well the gallery pressure keeps the tappet inflated (removing slack from the VT and preventing crash landing of the roller on the lobe). This varies between engine models (those never built with hydraulic tappets are suspect), oil viscosity, the fit of the tappet body in the bore, and pump pressure.
I wouldn't run it with 180, because my OCD will keep me listening for crunchy noises. To me, being comfortable with the decision is really important.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777089
05/22/20 03:26 PM
05/22/20 03:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 34,915
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Bend,OR USA
If your open pressures are not above 485 Lbs. now I would run it twocents
I built a pump gas 426 Hemi motor for a local customer years ago using a Comp Cams hydraulic roller and their lifters, those lifters sounded horrible no matter how I set the preload on them or ran it with zero preload rant I couldn't get it to be quite and the customer said to forget about them and he lived with it, which made me feel horrible about those lifters whiney I had set them, spring pressures, at around 180 lbs. on the seats and around 475 lbs. opened up
I heard several years that they ended up sending back 1500 sets of their brand hydraulic roller lifter back to the manufacturer do to being noisy work
I'm sure it is way better to have 30 Lbs. more pressure than needed than 3 lbs. to less on any roller lifter, solid or hydraulic up twocents work
Have you ever heard of a cam going flat on the heel or back side of the lobes work grin


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777095
05/22/20 03:36 PM
05/22/20 03:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,966
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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So. Burlington, Vt.
The only time I use seat loads that high for hyd rollers is when they’re being used with higher end lifters specifically designed for those operating conditions.

I wouldn’t put the std Comp hyd rollers in that category.

If you’re using Comp regular steel retainers, the tool steel or Ti retainers will add some height(.030 +/-).


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777165
05/22/20 07:31 PM
05/22/20 07:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,827
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Offline
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Rittman Ohio
When I called Gaterman about spring pressures he told me 150 on the seat and no more than 350 on the nose for the retro-fit hydraulic lifters. twocents

Gus beer


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777184
05/22/20 08:22 PM
05/22/20 08:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,496
New York
polyspheric Offline
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polyspheric  Offline
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Have you ever heard of a cam going flat on the heel or back side of the lobes

That's where they get chatter marks from multiple hard landings. That shock is what breaks the needles.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777229
05/22/20 09:58 PM
05/22/20 09:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,319
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Diplomat360 Offline OP
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Alright, thanks for all the responses you guys.

Couple of things I want to consider as a (perhaps) viable Plan-B type approaches:

1) run a different set of valve locks, something that's offset by 0.050" to give me that extra installed height, my only problem so far is that looking at how well the Harland Sharp 1.6 rockers line up with the valve stem I am already a bit off on the exhaust valve since it's a tad shorter than the intake, tossing a lash cap on there brings the geometry back in...unfortunately I can't do lash caps with the offset locks

2) find a different set of pring retainers that actually give me that extra 0.050-075" room, challenge there is that the 930 springs are already pretty wide (1.565") and that's putting the retainer pretty close to the rocker body, I'm worried that trying to find that extra 0.050" room to grow taller just isn't going to happen, I need to toss the rockers back on there and starting measuring closely beyond just eye-balling it

3) find a different set of spring locators that are thinner than the 0.060" set I have right now

Anyways, at least a few options. I tell you though, looking at specs only at the moment the 978 springs do fit in real nice with the goals of the project...so it may be one of these situations where as much as I hate to just spent the extra $$$ on the parts, it may just be the right thing to do here...grrhh!!!

Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: polyspheric] #2777230
05/22/20 09:59 PM
05/22/20 09:59 PM
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Oakland, MI
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dizuster Offline
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I can only provide my personal experiance...but my motor has 190 on the seat with 440lbs open.

Stock magnum rollers....

I even shimmed them up last time I had it apart for "short travel" (only .030" of total plunger travel, set at .015" preload) but it didn't change anything that I could tell in the quest for more RPM

I will say this is on a bullet cam core though...but the lifters themselves have been fine.

Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777234
05/22/20 10:07 PM
05/22/20 10:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 51,882
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Posts: 51,882
Romeo MI
I have a ?.. why run a 2.00 valve when your in the 1.88 range.. I run the 2.00 stuff and set them
up for 2.00
wave

Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2777263
05/23/20 02:54 AM
05/23/20 02:54 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 54
Lake Villa Il
INTMD8 Offline
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INTMD8  Offline
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Lake Villa Il
I suppose I have a slightly different opinion on this.

I'll start by saying most of my experience is with ls engines but have some experience with others.

Would say I've seen far more problems/damage caused by too little spring pressure than too much. Valve bounce on seat and/or loft equals major power loss and destruction

Seems to me many recommend too little pressure for hyd lifters, in my experience.

I've ran many LS engines reliably at 200lbs on the seat with hyd roller. Zero problems. Would run a spring with lower rate so it would end up around 450 over the nose with .600 lift.

Consider as well an LS with 200lb seat and a 1.7 rocker puts more load on the lifter than a lesser rocker ratio.

Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2777359
05/23/20 12:47 PM
05/23/20 12:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,319
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Diplomat360 Offline OP
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Diplomat360  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MR_P_BODY
I have a ?.. why run a 2.00 valve when your in the 1.88 range.. I run the 2.00 stuff and set them
up for 2.00
wave


Well, so these are never used before W2 long valve heads, MP P4529995. The MP intake valve for these was P5249195, which was a 5.280" long valve. They called out a spring installed height of 1.95-2.02". They are a 3/8" stem valve and mostly no longer available, at least when I was looking for them I could no longer find them. Either way, even if I could get them I wanted to go to a 11/32" stem valve anyways.

So the Manely valves are a tad shorter, that being 2.240", which in turn meant that I most likely could not do a longer spring, short of running some offset locks and/or retainers that allow me to gain some height.

When the heads went to the machine shop I had asked for a 1.900" installed height setup which included the spring locators (0.060" thick). When they measured things out it turned out we were short and the advice I got was NOT to machine the springs seats in the heads given the water passeges beneath. The other option was to re-do the valve seat, sink them a tad to gain on the upper end, but that just seemed like an idea not worthwhile pursuing. It is cheaper to go the route of a new set of shorter installed height springs than it is to machine new seats.

That is basically how I got to where I am today.

I suppose another option would be to do away with the spring locators, after all this is an iron head. However, given the cam I'm running and the .580 lift I wanted to keep the valve centered as much as possible to do away with any guide side-loading (in case of spring walk). Now, that maybe a BS worry, I simply do not have the experience to know any better, however from a theory perspective that made sense.

Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777365
05/23/20 01:03 PM
05/23/20 01:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 51,882
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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MR_P_BODY  Offline
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Posts: 51,882
Romeo MI
I am running a set of W-2s with out spring locators without any issues.. they have been on my
416 for about 6 years now... and I put 11/32 valves in them
wave

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 05/23/20 01:05 PM.
Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2777380
05/23/20 02:23 PM
05/23/20 02:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,966
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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So. Burlington, Vt.
Since the valve lift isn’t very high(.580...... assuming that’s the net lift), and the spring rate of the Comp 930’s is also not very high(354lb/in), the 180 on the seat is a little less of a concern.
Even at 180 on the seat, the open load would still be under 400lbs open.

It’s not how I’d “prefer” to have it set up........ but not “unusable” either.

A couple of suitable modern choices would be:
Comp Beehive 26056 - 160@1.800/392@.580 lift
Comp conical 7228 - 136@1.800/390@.580 lift

The conical shimmed up to 150-155 on the seat(about 1.770), would put you at just over 400 open, with a big reduction in spring/retainer weight.

That’s right where I’d wanna be with that combo.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: fast68plymouth] #2777631
05/24/20 09:58 AM
05/24/20 09:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,319
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Diplomat360 Offline OP
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Diplomat360  Offline OP
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Windsor, ON, Canada
fast68plymouth,

Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
...
A couple of suitable modern choices would be:
Comp Beehive 26056 - 160@1.800/392@.580 lift
Comp conical 7228 - 136@1.800/390@.580 lift

The conical shimmed up to 150-155 on the seat(about 1.770), would put you at just over 400 open, with a big reduction in spring/retainer weight.

That’s right where I’d wanna be with that combo.

You know, I have only superficial knowledge of the conical spring design (having never even considered such a spring before). But given that I'm basically looking at having to spend the $$$ for: springs, retainers and locators again I might as well consider that option.

So I did a pile of research into this over the last couple of days...my only question is: why hasn't everyone completely gone to this type of spring already? Or to put it another way: so what's the disadvantage of going that route?

A general question to all who know their parts catalogs, can you point me to a vendor who has a spring locator with an ID of .640" that will accept a spring with a base ID of .795" (which is that conical spring in our conversation)?

Why does this matter? Well, my guides are cut down for .530" positive seal, but the last .100" of the guide is actually .640" wide for the current locators I had intended to use. If I go down the route of the conical spring I'd have to machine down the guides further and that's yet another expense and worse yet a definite delay given the current situation out there.

Last edited by Diplomat360; 05/24/20 11:32 AM. Reason: Re: catalog find, I did go through Comp Cams, Crane and PAC listings w/o finding what I need...
Re: max seat spring pressure with hydraulic roller lifter? [Re: Diplomat360] #2777639
05/24/20 10:33 AM
05/24/20 10:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,966
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
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So. Burlington, Vt.
As with just about anything involved with using parts that aren’t specifically designed for your particular application..... some reworking is often necessary.

Comp has 3 spring seats that fit the conical spring being discussed here, and one spring cup that’s close enough that I’d use it.
All have an ID smaller than .640.

So, the choices are...... modify the head to fit the parts(machine guide to .570)......modify the new parts to fit the head(bore ID to .640)...... use different springs/parts that don’t require any mods.

The beehive spring and cup combo is a drop in.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

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