Hey folks, wondering what anyone has heard concerning the Carlisle show this year. I read/heard someplace that the Ford show was delayed 1 month, which puts it very close to the Chrysler show.

Anyone got some info?

Hope it's mid august for the warmer weather.

Rarely has it been pretty hot at Carlisle in mid july, don't need it hotter !

Ed has been great about posting updates on their Facebook page concerning the Chrysler show. So far it has NOT been rescheduled, and Ed is hopeful it won't have to be. But like everything else right now, it's not entirely under our control.

Thank you, Bruce!

Perhaps I should make a standalone Carlisle post on here, but for now, I'll address this one. Below is a copy and paste of what I posted on my PERSONAL Facebook. It's a little out of date because since then the Ford show was rescheduled to the end of July but the point of the post is still valid. Please read it and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't spread rumors or listen to them. To get the most current info, go to www.CarlisleEvents.com or any of our event Facebook pages!!

Without further ado:



The Carlisle Chrysler Nationals is NOT cancelled!! I was alerted tonight that there is another rumor going around and I want to clear things up. Here are some FACTS:

Nobody knows what is going to happen with this virus. As an event promoter, we are expected to predict the future. We can't! But we at least have to have a solid plan and be ready to change. We have already changed some shows. If you look at those changes, you'll see that we are changing them in the order in which they occur. Spring Carlisle got moved and so did our Import show. Those were the first 2 shows on our original schedule. Ford is next, scheduled for June 5-7, then it's our rescheduled Spring, then Chevy and THEN Chrysler. If Ford, Spring and Chevy aren't canceled (which they are NOT), why would we jump to Chrysler and cancel it, or even move it, at this point if we haven't moved the 3 shows before it??

Can the above change? Sure! And IF it does, here is the process and timeline: If we feel that we won't be able to have a show safely or the governor isn't allowing events on the date of an event and we have no choice but to reschedule, we look for alternate available dates. Once we find the best available date and we're SURE we need to reschedule, we get the team together to plan our official announcement. We pick the date and EXACT time that the announcement will be made via Facebook, our website and emails to that show's database. So far when we've done this, it all occurs in about 1-2 days.

For the best and most current information, just go to our website (www.CarlisleEvents.com) or the show's Facebook page. Whatever you see there is current! If you hear a rumor that one of our shows is canceled or rescheduled, don't call or message us (or me), just check either of the above sources.

I hope this helps and I'm planning to see everyone July 10-12 😁

I was hoping he'd chime in.

OK, thanks for the updates

Well I see are governor still has the county which Carlisle is in still in the red. From what I have read if a county is moved to the next step yellow I believe places are limited to 25 in one group at least we will have plenty of elbow room. Well i guess all we can do is wait and see!

At the 2pm Health of the State news conference today, the PA Health Secretary was asked about the status of upcoming large events in the State, be it outdoor events (like a Fair) or indoor (like a concert/auction/gun show/etc)

He/She said that no official decision has been made yet, as currently all county's are in either a Red or Yellow status.
Then followed up that comment with "no large events can occur in a County, UNTIL it returns to GREEN Status".

Take that for what it's worth...
But it seems the county has less than 8weeks left to move from Red to Green.
Yellow won't cut it according to Levine... who seems to be the only thing Wolf is listening too.

Haven't looked at a map, but hopefully Carlisle isn't in Dauphin County... They have been fighting all week with the Governor. And he is lashing out hard on all who dare to defy... and he holds a grudge. My bet is the 6 counties he is fighting with now, will be the last ones in the State allowed to open.

Yes you got that right and I guess when you think of it I,m sure it is less than 8 weeks because Carlisle needs time for everything to take place and get things ready so we might be talking 4 weeks. According to those in command it sounds like most counties still have an increase of the virus so it,s hard to believe that it will be green in 8 weeks. Maybe Ed will let us know how many weeks they need till it is moved to another date. Ed is a great guy and I know that I wouldn,t want to be in his shoes but keep up the good work!!!!

Thanks for the update.

Is Carlisle in the same county as Harrisburg the capital?

Carlisle is in Cumberland and Harrisburg is in Dauphin. The governor has said that any business opening ahead of time will be subject to losing any goverment money and also may lose there business license. The whole thing is getting wilder by the day!!!!! PS I live in Berks county about 50 miles from Carlisle and already the towns are beginning to cancel July 4th activities.

As some professional sports start back up without fans in attendance, it would be interesting to hear how the fairgrounds staff is planning to control social distancing protocols within the grounds.

Put aside the swap meet and car corral areas for a minute (but a major issue), what type of safety measures are being put in place for areas where there would typically be a large gathering of people in a small amount of space (concession stands, bathrooms, stands near the stage, information building, seminar tent area, car buildings)? I would assume the fairgrounds now has dedicated entrances and exits to promote social distancing.

If the event takes place this year, it will be interesting to see how far in advance guidelines/map are posted to prepare attendees.

Other questions that I’m thinking of are following:

Will camping be allowed on the property?

Will they rearrange the layout of the swap meet / show fields spots? Will the aisles have one way flow?

If Dodge continues with the thrill rides, will it be limited to a driver and one customer in the back seat (with sanitizing in between rides)?

We are looking at ALL of the points addressed above and then some. Yes, we are planning to implement measures. Right now, we still have 2 shows scheduled ahead of Chrysler so we are looking at a "worst case scenario" for those shows. Meaning, social distancing, extra sanitation, "sneeze guards" in Guest Services, etc. Hopefully we can lighten those measures as the season progresses.

We have prepared a 44-page document with our plan of how we can hold our events and do it SAFELY for everyone. We're on it!!

Right now, the numbers in Cumberland County are improving so that's a really good sign! Our staff is still working every day. Most are working from home but I choose to come to the office every day. The swap meet numbers are still UP over last year (year-to-date) and last year we completely sold out of every single space. Showfield numbers are down a little (less than 10%) but I think that's because a lot of people are waiting to register. I understand and that's fine. ALL of my special guests are still planning to attend.

I'm not sure what else I can say other than we absolutely want to have the shows (all of them) and that's what we are planning for. Now it's up to the government officials and how the disease numbers go over the next couple of weeks. Fingers crossed!!

Ed

Ed,

Thank you for the quick response! I always look forward to the event each year.

Would it be feasible and somewhat enforceable to make the show and swap meet aisles "One-Way", with passing allowed?

And while we are on possibilities, how about some seating spread out among the site, and a little shade might be asking too much?

Looks like Cumberland gets to go to Yellow on May 22nd... along with York, where I'm at.
"The Associated Press has learned that Wolf is planning to announce Friday that effective May 22, Adams, Beaver, Carbon, Columbia, Cumberland, Juniata, Mifflin, Perry, Susquehanna, Wyoming, Wayne and York will be the next batch of counties moving to the “yellow” phase of his reopening plan."

Now Cumberland just needs to get to GREEN early enough for plans to be made.
It will be interesting to see if Hotels will allow all the reservations... especially in Harrisburg area.
There has been some talk on the local news of Hotels re-opening at a lowered capacity.
(Also no morning breakfast buffets)

Glad York made the list, as it's been getting a little ugly here...
Our York DA is refusing to follow the Gov, and will not cite anyone for lock-down violations.
So Wolf is using the State Police as his personal SS, to hand out fines, and shut down businesses here.

Good luck making someone who just bought a fender walk 1.5 aisles to get to the exit instead of turn around and go back out the 1/2 aisle the way they came

Some a/c would be nice too! I've lived in PA most of my life but have only hit this event a couple times because ya know, humidity in this part of the world.

You must be thinking of a Chevy or Ford enthusiasts? Mopar enthusiasts always follow the rules.

I see your point, after walking miles of aisles for days to score a 50? year old rusted fender for a few bucks, walking across an aisle to the next one just to facilitate the flow of pedestrian traffic for the rest of the day for thousands, would be a bridge too far, I forget, this is a mopar get off my lawn crowd.

Seriously, if wearing a mask is infringing figuratively on one's rights during a pandemic, requiring crowds to walk one direction on an open air aisle is just a potential spark for a riot I suspect.

I,ve been watching this Red, Yellow, Green deal the governor has going and there isn,t even any talk of going green in the counties that first went yellow. I hate to say this but it looks like it will be a long time till any counties go Green and according to are leaders Green is the only way that any place can have a large number of people even yellow is only allowed 25 people!!!!

i have only missed two shows since it's inception. the first one, and one a couple of years ago when the water pump went out of my "bus" 50 miles into the trip.
as an old duffer with severe health issues, i believe i will pass this year, even if all the precautions are taken.
i'm not a "hide under the covers till it's gone" kind of guy, but i sure wouldn't want to bring the "cooties" home to my wonderful wife of 40 years.

I have my spaces in row P far back corner by gate 7. Fence on 2 sides of my spaces
You don't know how many people I have had to stop over the years from using my spaces as a toilet

That's sad to hear, but a reality we live in.

Would more, better located porta potties by event producer might relieve (pun intended) your situation?

Seems like there maybe a few vacant vendor spots scattered across the site this year, just screaming for a Porta Potty.

I would keep complaining.

Sad. But it is Row "P" after all.

One year I had a B#@&hy old woman walking her ankle biting dog and she let him crap right in front of my tables on the lawn and she walked away

I yelled at her Hey are you going to clean that up, she gave me a look took out some tissues and picked it up

I would have picked it up and threw it at her if she didn't

I don't complain, I just handle the situation my own way.

I get that but, its hard for the promoter to fix what they don't know about, and I bet you are not alone in your predicament.

Man, that's terrible! I've only been to Carlisle a couple of times, but never saw anything like this. Is there a "bad side" of the swap meet, like a bad side of town?

My wife was just asking me this morning if I want her to come with me this year, as she has to schedule the Friday off. I have a showfield entry and hotel reservation already. I will probably go depending on if they are allowed to hold the event or not. I mainly go to race Friday nights Mopar race at South Mountain Raceway if thats not held it will be a deciding factor in my attending. I do want to see the display of special Dodge drag trucks, and the AARs and T/As and the 50 years of Dusters as I have had four of them . Its great Cudaboy keeps us informed lets hope for good news !

What would be the purpose of traveling one way? Does the virus only go a certain direction in the outdoors so this would cut down any potential spread? That being said I hope the show goes on successful and it's not ruined with regulations..

Theoretically - in stores with shopping carts - people wouldn't pass close to each other much and the cart would maintain distance when several people are in an aisle. I think they have pretty much stopped that here now, along with limiting the amount of people in stores.

I can't comment on the effectiveness of the true reduction of covid transmission, BUT the big box stores implemented it, and the public seemed to be accepting of it, even it might have been more "theater" then anything else, what else is new, however with a car show, you know what its like wandering thru the swap field aisles, and bouncing from side to side when things catch your eye, when traffic is both ways, you are constantly running into head on other shoppers, then you do the shuck and jive a few things before you figure which side each is going to pass on, not a big deal, but we are both stopped, face to face, for a moment, all that would be done with if everybody was walking the same way. It will not be an issue when many stay home.

Hey I get it, new ideas are always poo poo before being tried, Change sucks for some. Thanks for asking, which I believe was a fair and somewhat sincere question.

edit I'm not astute enough to know if my shuck and jive reference is offensive to some, so if so, my apologies in advance as it was not meant to be.

Every store in this area that implemented 1-way isles, already did away with them.
Didn't even last a week at Giant(grocery store)... signs & arrows are gone at the Home Depot, Walmart & SAMS too.

It seemed to me the Big Box store one way COVID concept NEVER made sense from a infection standpoint.Thought it was stupid then and still do, glad they dumped the idea, sad though the "sheep" went blindly along with it and nobody objected.
My idea was to maybe get the "sheep" to think, the car show was "trying" to be proactive in protecting everyone's safety ( and I can see no case it would make it less safe), and maybe sneak in a idea that would surely IMO reduce pedestrian congestion when the show is busy and crowded, and relatively easy to implement in 2020 "safety and all" to get everyone used to the idea and a test run, when crowds might be be reduced because of COVID.
But hey, you can lead horse to water, but..............



Edit, the big box stores have a vested interest in erasing COVID from everyone's memory ASAP, until a second wave possibly arrives, they answer to the almighty dollar.

Well with living in Pa. thing's seem to be moving slowly. It looks like under yellow only 25 people or less can meet. Under green only 250 or less can meet and no large gatherings at all so it is about anybodies guess when we will be walking the aisles at Carlisle.Maybe just maybe they can pull of an exception with are fine Governor!!!!

Looks like a bunch of us regulars will not be attending this years show. There are some reason but this is what I hear from others. No social distancing can be in effect in a show with isles like this. Two sides of each isle with no passing people, no one will not follow the 6 foot rules anyways. Vending at a spot with people picking up the parts one after another. Do you tell them not to touch them unless you buy them. Show buildings how many people will be let in a one time and do you have to line up six feet apart trying to enter each building. These types of shows are for looking through the swap meet for parts so everyone at the show does this. The Hotel, how well are rooms going to be cleaned after someone else stays there. We had problems with a clean room last year and the year before and had changed to another room every year so I can imagine just how lacks the cleaning will be. Were I live things are shut down or partially shut down till July 1st. The boarder is still shut down and no one knows when it will open. Playing to attend and vend when there are no answers up to a week and a half ahead of the show is not a good thing when you vend. Ah Maybe next year when the 1971s will be 50 years old I will dig one of my E Bodies out of the garage and attend with a Vehicle for the first time instead of vending.

Have fun stay safe.

......... The Hotel, how well are rooms going to be cleaned after someone else stays there......

Those indian hotel owners aren't exactly the cleanest , especially at some of the lower price hotels.

I was talking to a friend of mine who has 4 spots and it doesn,t look like he is going to make the trip. He told me that most of the aftermarket people he deals with don,t have any parts on the shelves because the manufactures were shut down so it became the trickle affect. I think there is going to be alot of empty vender spots. Has anyone heard are they having spring Carlisle which is in about 2 weeks?

How can they proclaim to all that the Show is Officially "ON"... when Wolf still hasn't said any large events can happen.

https://www.streetmusclemag.com/news/carlisle-chrysler-nationals-is-a-go-for-2020/

While it might be "likely"... Without Wolf's "Blessing from the High Tower", how can it be official.
At this point I think a lot of people are more interested on whether or not Carlisle will offer "Refunds" to anyone that doesn't want to go because of Covid.... Especially if they are older(like most of those in the show field) or have underlying conditions, like diabetes, heart or lung issues or suppressed immune system from cancer treatments(either current or past).

Also note Wolf just extended his Covid Emergency Powers today (6/3) for another 90days...

I guess he realizes his "political career" is over, might as well go out being "well remembered" for his actions...

Looks like the show is cancelled.

I don't know... two conflicting announcements on the same day.

The article I posted that says Carlisle is On...
And the Governor of PA claiming a State Emergency for another 90days.

But then again... Wolf was marching with hundreds of protesters this week in a YELLOW county.
So apparently his "rules" are, well... "flexible" if he's invited...
So they just have to invite him to Chrysler's at Carlisle.... problem solved.

If canceled , why cannot it be post-poned till a later date?

Just checked Carlisle's website-still counting down: 35 days 12 hours and 53 minutes to go

And once again NOT TRUE

At this point I would not say anything , Just wait and see what the state does

Nothing is sure until the week before the Chrysler Show

Big test is if the show next week happens there !!!!!!

.......Nothing is sure until the week before the Chrysler Show.........


That's going to annoy a lot of people if Carlisle Events waits until a week before the show to cancel it, with travel plans and vendor setup involved. .

Let face it, there are no real winners here. If they canceled say tomorrow, and the Gov dropped Restrictions in a day or two, many would complain they jumped the gun, if they wait until a week before, many will complain why did they wait until last minute. Its best if everyone just has some understanding here. I think a week out cancellation is the best compromise for this, but heck then, I have no problem compromising on the little stuff.

I have already made my plans.

If you read the Governors red, yellow and green stages Carlisle is now in yellow and it states that no more than 25 people can gather with no large gathering. I don,t think it will change to green till Carlisle and even if it would, under green it say,s no more than 250 people together and no large gatherings. If there is a show maybe the Governor shook hands with the Carlisle owners. I was told that Hershey car show is cancelled and that is in Oct. If that is true something doesn't add up!!!!!

PS I talked to pretty many guy's who said they were not going because of walking around with a mast in 95 degree weather and i personally cannot blame them! I alway's go 3 day's but will only go 1 if that!

Its my understanding. the Mopar Nats staff is waiting to decide if or how to proceed once a decision on IF the Carlisle show will go on as planned .

There has already been several large shows around the country either canceled or delayed by months

I have no interest in the Carlisle show, But the Wife and I just bought flights back for the Nats in Aug.
if it doesn't happen I'll just get more time to visit with family and friends

I still could not even fly into the US being from Germany

Carsten

I'm Not a dr., but the virus supposeably can't travel in heat.

it's hot in florida, california, nevada, texas, arizona, etc. lots of cases there now.

Yes you are right Its hot in Florida, always has been, but there are approx 2600 Floridians that are currently on the rather cold side right now, according to real Dr's.

Good to know the virus will not travel to Carlisle with me, if I planned to attend.

Does Bolig have a red phone to the gov's desk??

Sounds like a logistical nightmare everyone stay safe!The wife and will go boating that weekend.Will be back at Chrysler's at Carlisle in 2021.😃

Don't know about the phone but I sure don't understand how there doing the shows when know one else is allowed to have a large crowd. Like i said before under green you can't have over 250 people and Carlisle isn't even in the green yet. I guess that it's called politics!!!!!!!!!!

Same here. I canceled my room. Just felt even if it did happen the vendors would be sparse and everything else a PIA.

I feel like the turn out would be way down so i will wait till next year.

C'mon people, if everyone is scared then you will ruin it for the rest of us who are going no matter what! Once this starts going it will mushroom in a hurry with wild rumors and innuendo's. I guess I can get a few more swap spots this year, Megaparts is not going, sucks...

That certainly is a possibility, nobody however should overlook the opposite worst case scenario, which seems to me, just if not more so, concerning.

Everybody wants the show, but.............

...... Megaparts is not going.......


Doesn't surprise me ,their tent is always packed with parts and people.

I think that Mega parts won't be the only one's not there. A friend of mine who sells used and repo parts told me he couldn't get the repo parts because the companies shelf's are empty because the companies that make the stuff were closed down because of the virus!!

I just got an email that Mecum is postponing their Harrisburg PA auction, which was to start July 29, due to state and local restrictions.

Anyone here ever get a good deal on a car at Carlisle? I thought a lot of you said most stuff was overpriced. It will be interesting to see what things sell for this year because of the virus...

Different county. I live in Harrisburg (Dauphin County), and work in Carlisle (Cumberland County). I work in an "essential" industry...I see some stuff opening, and some stuff staying closed. The local dragstrip opened last weekend (South Mountain). I didn't check in to see if there were any restrictions, or etc. on that, but they're lucky to get 250 total people there on a regular weekend...so probably not a big deal. Anyways, Dauphin is still under restrictions for a few weeks yet, so I can see the Mecum postponement. As for Carlisle...unless they've got a back door deal worked with the state...it's hard to say whether or not any events will happen yet. I have noticed a lot of businesses in Cumberland County seem to be following their own guidelines though.

35 years ago, i found a 70 super bee for my one buddy that was restored [to the standards at that time] that was exactly like the car he had when he got married.
it was a 383/833 combo, orange with a black interior and ralley wheels.
asking price was 7500, but when the deal closed, i got it for 5950.
he still has it today, and has located his original car he bought new. it is a couple of towns over from here.

this probably doesn't compare to this year.

There again if they have there shows i would say that they cut a deal with Mr. Wolf because like i said before even under green like has been already stated it has to be 250 people or less no matter what the county!!!!!

alot of good news there!!

thanks again Ed!

Maybe we can change the name of this thread to "Carlisle is NOT canceled" or I can start a new thread. Then IF something does change, we can change the name of the thread, delete it or something. It's getting harder and harder to stay ahead of the rumors.

Ed

Guys... I changed the title of the thread...How's that?

That's awesome. Thank you!!

Ed

Random tip for you Ed....

You can reply to the thread with the Edited title to keep the thread title going or Edit the thread title in your replies.

So the buildings on the fairgrounds are closed?

Buildings will be OPEN and will follow current CDC Guidelines...just like all other businesses in buildings (Walmart, grocery stores, etc).

Ed

From the Gov's statement "Businesses that operate these outdoor recreational activities may resume operations but may not operate indoor spaces for public or visitor use other than restrooms and ticketing and entry locations."


How does this allow the buildings to be open ????

Stephens Performance will once again be at Carlisle selling AMD sheet metal
in swap spaces A95 to A100
10% discount for Moparts members.
Call now to pre order (256) 247-1332 or (888) 466-7276.

OK, so I have 7 vendor spaces in row P, far corner by gate 7. Lots of shade for a good part of the day and I always rent at least a 20X30 tent, draws a lot of shade tree lookers.
My question is how to keep people from huddling up in the shade?

Ed

My question is are the display building open when the gov's news release says different?

Is anybody selling a Mopar logo face mask at the show?

i don't know about at the show, if there will be one, but mopar collectors guide has them for sale now. they are in the latest addition.
$14.95 plus shipping. [of course.]

I don’t go to this show but saw this on Facebook tonight

Face masks will be fun in July!

It states that a facemask or shield must be worn to enter, so that's what I will do, wear one to enter. After that, it's coming off.

Going to be some interesting tan lines this year. Shirtless guys (who should not be shirtless) wearing a mask. And imagine how nasty the masks will be by shows end.

I remember about 5 years ago it being 103 and I had to rotate through the 3 shirts I had while the others dried out. I agree, masks in July would suck.

Luckily ours is a family business so at the shop here we dont need masks but I cant see an easy way to keep everyone safe going to the show. We are going to pass this year and just pay for our spots. Hopefully things were be closer to normal next year.

Good luck to all!

That was one brutal weekend. Shoe soles were sticking to the hot asphalt. To top it off, I only located ONE hose/faucet spot on entire swap to hose-off with. You think the SHOW PEOPLE would have had enough sense to provide more or ANYTHING for people to cool off with.

US CANADIAN border closed until 7/21


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/border-covid-extension-july-1.5613854

Carlisle may be considered Essential Business ;-)

my concern is vendors wont show up

I am not going this year.
I have 2 of my 7 vendor spaces leased to a friend.
So I have 5 spaces in row P216 to P220 to lease if any one is interested

Ed

I personally believe but could be wrong that the attendance is going to be way down and the vendors are also going to be way down.I usually go 3 day's but this year either 1 day or none and that also is what a friend is doing!!!!!

That’s personal responsibility, not a responsibility of the show.

Even if the covid stuff cleared up, I would still think the attendance would be there but with the economy the way it is people would not spend a lot of money.

i think an argument on Carlisle's behalf would be, they have dozens of acres, why should they have to be limited to same count of 250 people when another venue, say a parking lot of a small retail store has the same restriction. it doesn't make sense

Servicing and meeting the needs/whims of attendees however is how a show sustains, grows or declines, so everybody gets to make their own decision as their own responsibility.

Personal Responsibility...there is a couple of words I do not hear very often anymore.

Because it is always directed at others, never at one's self, ie, everybody scores a 100 when grading their own spelling bee.

Here is another link from one of our local Central PA news stations (8 Lancaster)
https://www.wgal.com/article/pennsy...ts-to-shut-down-spring-carlisle/32893124

It didn't take Wolf long to start swinging wood... knew it would happen.
Hopefully it gets spanked down by the courts like other things he tried the last 3months.

Wolf & the he/she are talking about Spring Carlisle right now live on TV... 3:40pm
Said they expect to see this SHUT DOWN soon... as it does not meet "THEIR" clearly defined "250" guidelines.
Also said his "Walking in the protests with Thousands of people" was "IMPORTANT"... apparently Carlisle is not.

I hope they are able to hold the show regardless of the politics involved . Thousands of people attending the event and spending money to boost the local economy isn't important? I have however notified them for a refund of which they are doing and canceled my hotel room. With everything thats going on and the fact I injured my knee last week I will not be attending this year or be able to race Friday evening at South Mountain which is the highlight of my Chryslers at Carlisle weekend

Looks like they got a Judge that ain't buying the whole "But Wolf attending large Protests was more important" angle...
GOOD!!!

Hope it goes in Carlisle's favor today.

We will have watch and see what Fridays court date brings.

Are you serious???? 100deg day with people out in the open walking, carrying stuff, & most up in the years. A MEGA $$$ show & they can't provide a simple hose, sprinkler, etc.? Yeah Right! Guess they'll "Hop" right on it, when people start dropping in the aisles. To me it shows: lack of preparation (hot days forecast) or a total disregard for the attendees' well being. .

This was also being shared on Facebook yesterday;

Video of the crowd this morning shown on local news from that area. Lots of vendors it looks like. No face masks except the news guy

https://www.wgal.com/article/hearin...g-carlisle-ends-with-no-ruling/32906415#