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Re: Starter relay question [Re: dragon slayer] #2767137
04/22/20 03:03 PM
04/22/20 03:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
Dave_J Offline
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Dave_J  Offline
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Auburn WA
There was not enough information in the first few posts and then the information after is kind of scattered.

How I would do this, IF I think this is going, is to isolate that wire he has voltage on. See where its getting its 12 volts and remove it.

The Neutral switch lug on the Starter Relay, I would just make a 5 inch black wire with a female spade on one end and an eyelet connector on the other. Put the spade on the neutral lug and the eyelet under the bolt holding the Starter Relay down, BOB's YOUR UNCLE!


Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994
ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997
Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015


Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.

03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter
65 Formula S Cuda
78 Little Red Express Truck
98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
Re: Starter relay question [Re: dragon slayer] #2767217
04/22/20 08:33 PM
04/22/20 08:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,408
Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline
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Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted by dragon slayer
What does hanging loose mean? Loose from ground point or loose from relay.

So I guess we could ask, where do you ground your starter relay too (originally), since the safety switch was removed?


Loose from the relay. If it's not plugged into the relay and it's hot, it's not a ground.

Ground it anywhere. Sheet metal close to the relay will be easiest.

If it was working and now it's not, something changed. Lights not working, ground wire is now hot. I'd be looking at harnesses for rodent damage. Any fuses blown?


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Starter relay question [Re: Dave_J] #2767661
04/23/20 10:23 PM
04/23/20 10:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
MadMatt Offline OP
super stock
MadMatt  Offline OP
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Nampa, ID
Originally Posted by Dave_J
There was not enough information in the first few posts and then the information after is kind of scattered.

How I would do this, IF I think this is going, is to isolate that wire he has voltage on. See where its getting its 12 volts and remove it.

The Neutral switch lug on the Starter Relay, I would just make a 5 inch black wire with a female spade on one end and an eyelet connector on the other. Put the spade on the neutral lug and the eyelet under the bolt holding the Starter Relay down, BOB's YOUR UNCLE!


I'm sold on the idea of running a new ground. (I actually got the same advice from Richard Ehrenberg). Now I need to figure out why the all the gauge lights are out. I checked the fuse and it's good. And when I pull out the headlamp switch I get 12 volts at the fuse. So, unless all the bulbs blew out somehow, I guess it has to be a ground issue.

So can anyone tell me how the gauge cluster lights ground? I've tried looking at the wiring diagram but it isn't clear to me.


Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
Re: Starter relay question [Re: MadMatt] #2767666
04/23/20 10:32 PM
04/23/20 10:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,883
Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
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Grand Prairie,Texas
Grounds through the screws that hold it to the dash

Re: Starter relay question [Re: stumpy] #2767669
04/23/20 10:41 PM
04/23/20 10:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
Dave_J Offline
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Dave_J  Offline
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Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
Originally Posted by stumpy
Grounds through the screws that hold it to the dash


^^^^This!

Did you mess back behind the dash, even a little? The dash printed circuit board has (Off the top of my head) 8 pins that are crimped on the board. The connector goes on those pins. They have been known to get loose and snap off. So if you got your mitts back there you could have goggled one loose. They can be reinserted and swedged back on but it is fiddly work.

You are only 480 miles southeast of me, I'll be right over.... wink Really if you were within 100 miles I'd head over to look. But 8 hours is a bit much.


Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994
ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997
Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015


Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.

03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter
65 Formula S Cuda
78 Little Red Express Truck
98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
Re: Starter relay question [Re: Dave_J] #2767673
04/23/20 10:48 PM
04/23/20 10:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
MadMatt Offline OP
super stock
MadMatt  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
Originally Posted by Dave_J
Originally Posted by stumpy
Grounds through the screws that hold it to the dash


^^^^This!

Did you mess back behind the dash, even a little? The dash printed circuit board has (Off the top of my head) 8 pins that are crimped on the board. The connector goes on those pins. They have been known to get loose and snap off. So if you got your mitts back there you could have goggled one loose. They can be reinserted and swedged back on but it is fiddly work.


Nope, I haven't been up behind the dash for anything in years.


Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
Re: Starter relay question [Re: MadMatt] #2767769
04/24/20 09:06 AM
04/24/20 09:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,319
VA
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dragon slayer Offline
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VA
The dash lights are dimmable no? Car sitting can cause electrical contact issues (mild oxidation). Cycle dimmer switch and light switch. Add a ground wire to the panel frame. I did that as backup on my dash.

Re: Starter relay question [Re: dragon slayer] #2767803
04/24/20 11:01 AM
04/24/20 11:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,587
Detroit area
6PAX Offline
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Detroit area
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I am experiencing pretty much the exact same problem right now as MadMatt with coincidentally, my 70 Dart. When I got the car out of storage it started fine. Put it back in my garage where it sat for a week or so. Went to start it a couple of days ago and it cranked over but I prematurely let off the key before it actually started. So I turned the key again and it won't crank over and still doesn't each time I try. I have checked pretty much everything I can think of. There is power at the yellow connector on the starter relay with the key turned to start and if I jump the relay, it will crank and start. I have checked and cleaned all of the connections on the starter relay including where it bolts to the fender. I have checked and cleaned all of the bulkhead connectors as well as the neutral safety switch connections and I have tried 2 new starter relays. Still won't crank with the key. confused

Re: Starter relay question [Re: 6PAX] #2767815
04/24/20 11:56 AM
04/24/20 11:56 AM
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Posts: 1,319
VA
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dragon slayer Offline
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VA
Did you check that the neutral safety switch is giving you a ground when in neutral?

Re: Starter relay question [Re: dragon slayer] #2769364
04/29/20 07:40 AM
04/29/20 07:40 AM
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Posts: 1,319
VA
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dragon slayer Offline
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VA
Turns out we were putting car back together from a resto, and it would not start via key. Turns out relay was bad. So I took the bad one a part. Turns out it was pristine inside and the coil was not bad. What I found is that the 2 terminals used to activate the coil are assembled in 3 pieces. Brass terminal, brass rivet, and inside terminal that the coil is soldered too. When I checked coil from inside it was fine at 25ohms. When I checked coil from terminals as the ignition system would use it, it read open.

Turns out on both terminals the inner contact had no continuity to the outside spade, and on one terminal the rivet did not even have continuity to the terminal. So they must have had a heavy varnish/coating that insulated the connection. Really a bad way to build this with 3 independent connections. Having the spade terminal go fully through to the coil wire and rivet would have been much better. No joint and the rivet is only responsible for mechanical binding, not actually continuity.

I clean the rivet and soldered the inside terminal to the rivet head, and on the terminal that had bad continuity to the rivet, I flowed flux on it and heated with solder iron to burn off any varnish, then flowed some solder under the rivet.

20200428_225232_resized.jpg20200428_225249_resized.jpg
Re: Starter relay question [Re: 6PAX] #2769418
04/29/20 11:13 AM
04/29/20 11:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
Quote
There is power at the yellow connector on the starter relay with the key turned to start and if I jump the relay, it will crank and start.
when you say jumping the relay if you are grounding the G terminal & it now cranks then what Dragon Slayer said, see why the NSS downstream ain't grounding the G terminal like it should


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Starter relay question [Re: RapidRobert] #2769615
04/29/20 07:15 PM
04/29/20 07:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,888
Harriman NY
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71GTX471 Offline
top fuel
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Posts: 1,888
Harriman NY
Elementary electronics, so basic & so simple yet it kicks so many peoples buts, understanding electronics can really be confusing,like when electronic Ign. came out in the early 70s what a game changer.

Last edited by 71GTX471; 04/29/20 07:22 PM.
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