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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: varunner] #2767447
04/23/20 02:01 PM
04/23/20 02:01 PM
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i'm not convinced .033" IFR is too large. I didn't think you could go that big on that tube, but .033" IFR with .066" IAB isn't outrageous. I think there's something else going on. I know this isn't apples to apples but this morning I took the plugs out of my '65 coronet 440 with two edelbrock AFB's. I run four .036" idle jets plus whatever the secondaries are doing and that's a lot of idle jet area. I couldn't be happier with plug burn.

Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: lewtot184] #2767453
04/23/20 02:11 PM
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ok, I just ran some numbers. going from .022" to .033" increased the area 225%, that's a lot. so going from .066" to .069" is about 9.5%. so maybe a 9.5% correction isn't bad at the IAB. i'd still look at stuff like leaky power valve (fluttering), float level/fuel pressure vs small needle and seats. i'm done; good luck!

ok, I thought I was done. the 225% is high (I think). the .022" jet is 44% of the .033" jet, so maybe about 150% change. still a lot and further than I have gone.

Last edited by lewtot184; 04/23/20 02:23 PM.
Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: varunner] #2767455
04/23/20 02:17 PM
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Obviously iiwii....... and if it’s working good that’s really all that matters........ but it seems really odd to me that adding 003” to a .066 hole(+.0003197sq/in)in an idle air bleed would change the idle speed by 300rpm.


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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: fast68plymouth] #2767479
04/23/20 03:26 PM
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The rise in rpm surprised me too. Hey, I'm at a loss in explaining any of this stuff, just reporting what I'm seeing.

Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Obviously iiwii....... and if it’s working good that’s really all that matters........ but it seems really odd to me that adding 003” to a .066 hole(+.0003197sq/in)in an idle air bleed would change the idle speed by 300rpm.

Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: lewtot184] #2767482
04/23/20 03:35 PM
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The .033" is really a shot in the dark. But you know once I think about it, did I just only change how much the mixture screws are screwed out ? I started at .022/.066 with screws at 2 turns out. Now at .033/.069 at 1.25 turns out ? Surely there's more to it than that, can't be that simple..........

Originally Posted by lewtot184
ok, I just ran some numbers. going from .022" to .033" increased the area 225%, that's a lot. so going from .066" to .069" is about 9.5%. so maybe a 9.5% correction isn't bad at the IAB. i'd still look at stuff like leaky power valve (fluttering), float level/fuel pressure vs small needle and seats. i'm done; good luck!

ok, I thought I was done. the 225% is high (I think). the .022" jet is 44% of the .033" jet, so maybe about 150% change. still a lot and further than I have gone.

Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: varunner] #2767488
04/23/20 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by varunner
The .033" is really a shot in the dark. But you know once I think about it, did I just only change how much the mixture screws are screwed out ? I started at .022/.066 with screws at 2 turns out. Now at .033/.069 at 1.25 turns out ? Surely there's more to it than that, can't be that simple..........

Originally Posted by lewtot184
ok, I just ran some numbers. going from .022" to .033" increased the area 225%, that's a lot. so going from .066" to .069" is about 9.5%. so maybe a 9.5% correction isn't bad at the IAB. i'd still look at stuff like leaky power valve (fluttering), float level/fuel pressure vs small needle and seats. i'm done; good luck!

ok, I thought I was done. the 225% is high (I think). the .022" jet is 44% of the .033" jet, so maybe about 150% change. still a lot and further than I have gone.
as fuel volume increases (more jet area) then more control may be needed (mixture screws). the mixture screws are like a faucet; they control volume. you did a very noticeable volume increase.

Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: varunner] #2767490
04/23/20 03:54 PM
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You’re right..... it’s not that simple.

The air bleed/ifr relationship determines the A/F ratio mix of the circuit.

The mixture screws adjust the volume of that mix to the discharge ports.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: fast68plymouth] #2767515
04/23/20 04:59 PM
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No ? kinda does sound that simple to me. To change the ratio, I have to increase the quantity of fuel, which I did with the bigger jet. To compensate I ended up closing the mixture screw which reduced the fuel and air. Same amount fuel in both cases. Of course I"m generalizing here, but on a course level that what it seems to be. But you guys are the experts, I'm just trying to learn. thanks again.

Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
You’re right..... it’s not that simple.

The air bleed/ifr relationship determines the A/F ratio mix of the circuit.

The mixture screws adjust the volume of that mix to the discharge ports.

Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: varunner] #2767517
04/23/20 05:03 PM
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If you say so.

Does it idle in gear better than before?

If so...... then it’s not really the same...... is it?


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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: fast68plymouth] #2767578
04/23/20 06:43 PM
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I don't know Dwayne. Idle quality is pretty subjective. But since I've been working on it, it must be better smile In all seriousness, I'm not sure I accomplished much in how the engine runs at idle, but I've learned a little.

Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
If you say so.

Does it idle in gear better than before?

If so...... then it’s not really the same...... is it?

Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: varunner] #2767582
04/23/20 07:01 PM
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The way I look at it is this......

It’s a race car. It doesn’t have to have the drivability of a Camry.
At the same time, having to do a bunch of fancy foot work with the brake and gas pedals isn’t acceptable to me either, or having it try and die after the burn out.

If it starts good, idles reasonably well in gear, doesn’t try and die after the burnout, and requires a minimal amount of two footing while driving around in the pits...... in my mind, for that application....... it’s fine.

When it was a race car with a rowdy cam, I’d never leave my car idling in gear for any length of time.
I’d click it into neutral and let it bounce happily along at 11-1200.

Only during the times when it had pretty mild cams in it did I ever leave it idling in gear at stoplights, etc.


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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: fast68plymouth] #2767632
04/23/20 09:11 PM
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Agreed. The car does all those things. I take that from your prospective nothing was broke, and I get that. But I like to tinker with stuff and trying different things is how I learn.

Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: varunner] #2767775
04/24/20 09:18 AM
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I imagine with a .022” ifr it would have been a little finickier than I would have lived with.

I would have probably tweaked it too.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: lewtot184] #2768023
04/25/20 09:03 AM
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Here's something out of the FSM concerning the secondary idle system


Originally Posted by lewtot184
so if no fuel goes thru the secondary slots, and I can see were there may not be much with slot not being on the suction side of the throttle blades, then what does the slot do? my thoughts were; if there's an idle bleed boss on top of the body it can be drilled, and the body had a passage down to the base plate, then why couldn't it all get connected. . tricky part will be the base plate. of course without something in hand to look at I know i'm making some assumptions. IIRC the metering plate was similar to a 6pak and I know back in the day I understood the idle feed restriction, but i'm sure I didn't understand the relationship between all the parts and passages. anyhow, it's all a thought.

I know from playing with a factory 440hp avs with no secondary idle circuit and switching to an edelbrock 1407 that does have a secondary idle circuit there's almost night and day difference in low rpm engine burn and vaccum. I never thought a lot about how dramatic the difference was until this discussion. I know from playing with 6paks the primary carb circuit is really screwed up and needs mods. none of us do the mods so we just compensate for the problem by going after the secondary idle circuit which I think makes the engine burn dirty. I know the 1407 burns a lot cleaner than the avs. circumventing ma-mopars smog crap can be a brain teaser.

20200424_082631.jpg20200424_082639 (2).jpg
Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: varunner] #2768043
04/25/20 10:17 AM
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I don’t know how your particular carb is set up, but the one in the link, that i posted the pics of the baseplate of....... that carb doesn’t have the constant idle discharge ports.

The guy working on the one in the second link didn’t have pics, but commented how his carb didn’t have them either.

Also, the FSM diagram of the secondary idle circuit air bleed system doesn’t coincide with how it’s described to be routed in the first link.
Instead of being directed into the secondary metering plate, it goes straight to the bottom, into the baseplate....... and the author of the thread describes and has pics of how he re-routed that part of the circuit.

Are they all like that? Who knows.

You have two of those carbs, right?
Maybe you could see if yours is like the one in the FSM, of the one in the link.

As seen here...... no constant idle discharge port:

FD358E0C-0FFC-40D8-AAC4-8FED5D4D9D0B.png

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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: fast68plymouth] #2768050
04/25/20 10:41 AM
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Here’s an old 3310 baseplate....... it has the constant idle discharge ports:

3F280CD2-89E2-4941-A05B-369E8278F16D.png

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Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: fast68plymouth] #2768073
04/25/20 11:13 AM
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i thought it was stated that the metering block didn't have a IFR,...? the schematic shows different, but that schematic has a different metering plate than what I thought those HP383's had,....? anyhow, from what I see I think the discharge port, IFR passages can be added. no secondary idle fuel circuit sure makes'em more difficult to tune.

Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: lewtot184] #2768085
04/25/20 11:42 AM
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That’s what I was saying earlier.
If the carb being used here doesn’t have the constant idle discharge ports...... I’d be adding them, along with whatever mods to the main body were necessary to facilitate the proper function of one of the aftermarket metering plates that can utilize std jets(like a QFT 34-2).


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Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: fast68plymouth] #2768146
04/25/20 02:38 PM
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Here's my baseplate. It looks like the idle port is fed from the primary side, I think Dwayne mentioned that. The secondary metering plate idle channel lines up the air bleed and into the baseplate as a slot above butterfly.

Maybe the diagram from the FSM for a 440. The manual says the diagrams for the 4160 for both 383 and 440 is generic. Just saw that mentioned in the manual. My bad

20200425_141336.jpg
Re: Where is IFR in this metering block [Re: fast68plymouth] #2768149
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I have the QFT plate in it now. It's idle well matches up the hole in the body. I'm thinking the slot that is fed by it is really functioning as a transfer slot since it's covered up at idle. Not sure about that though....

Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
That’s what I was saying earlier.
If the carb being used here doesn’t have the constant idle discharge ports...... I’d be adding them, along with whatever mods to the main body were necessary to facilitate the proper function of one of the aftermarket metering plates that can utilize std jets(like a QFT 34-2).

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