Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: Mattax]
#2767049
04/22/20 10:14 AM
04/22/20 10:14 AM
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fast68plymouth
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I’ll just add this, as a reference on where you might need to end up with regards to ifr sizing.......
In my experience, when using cams similarly sized as what the OP is using...... if one had a normal Holley aftermarket performance carb that had the traditional 2 corner idle circuit....... like a 4777(650dp), or older model 4779(750dp, before they came with 4 corner idle), or a 3310(750vs), you would find that those carbs would have marginally acceptable idle circuit capacity(it wouldn’t be good enough to where I could leave it with the stock calibration). And those carbs all had the fixed secondary idle discharge ports contributing to the fuel flow, in addition to having a more performance idle calibration(as opposed to the factory emissions calibration with a stock cam that provides nearly 20” of idle vacuum).
What I would do to solve the idle quality issues on those carbs in motors with big cams, where the rules didn’t prohibit it, is to install 4 corner idle....... which nearly doubles the idle fuel flow capacity.
You can’t do that for Stock....... but you could get creative with some replaceable idle feed orifices installed in the secondary side of the main body or baseplate.
While a std performance Holley carb with a normal 2 corner idle circuit would definitely be an improvement over the factory 383 carb in terms of low speed operation........ if you swapped it out for a carb with 4 corner idle you’d see how much better still it could be.
Right now, with the tiny ifr and lack of any additional idle fuel flow from the secondary side....... I’m going to say the low speed operation bar is set extremely low.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2767075
04/22/20 11:58 AM
04/22/20 11:58 AM
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lewtot184
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I’ll just add this, as a reference on where you might need to end up with regards to ifr sizing.......
In my experience, when using cams similarly sized as what the OP is using...... if one had a normal Holley aftermarket performance carb that had the traditional 2 corner idle circuit....... like a 4777(650dp), or older model 4779(750dp, before they came with 4 corner idle), or a 3310(750vs), you would find that those carbs would have marginally acceptable idle circuit capacity(it wouldn’t be good enough to where I could leave it with the stock calibration). And those carbs all had the fixed secondary idle discharge ports contributing to the fuel flow, in addition to having a more performance idle calibration(as opposed to the factory emissions calibration with a stock cam that provides nearly 20” of idle vacuum).
What I would do to solve the idle quality issues on those carbs in motors with big cams, where the rules didn’t prohibit it, is to install 4 corner idle....... which nearly doubles the idle fuel flow capacity.
You can’t do that for Stock....... but you could get creative with some replaceable idle feed orifices installed in the secondary side of the main body or baseplate.
While a std performance Holley carb with a normal 2 corner idle circuit would definitely be an improvement over the factory 383 carb in terms of low speed operation........ if you swapped it out for a carb with 4 corner idle you’d see how much better still it could be.
Right now, with the tiny ifr and lack of any additional idle fuel flow from the secondary side....... I’m going to say the low speed operation bar is set extremely low. I agree on trying to come up with an idle feed for the secondaries. I don't think it could be that difficult. I can't get those taptalk pictures (keep getting 500 ERROR,....?) but I know from working with a factory avs with no secondary idle circuit that hoops have to be jumped thru to get enough fuel for even a higher vacuum stocker. I don't think a .033" idle jet by itself will cover 4 holes letting air in; especially with low vaccum, but it's a bunch better than .022". I think i'd find a standard vacuum secondary holley and study the circuit and see if it can be duplicated. bet it can.
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: lewtot184]
#2767123
04/22/20 02:28 PM
04/22/20 02:28 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Here ya go Lew.....
Notice the trough that allows primary idle mixture to also be discharged into the secondary side.
Secondary side has transfer slots sitting high on the baseplate. No discharge ports below the blades.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: lewtot184]
#2767162
04/22/20 04:30 PM
04/22/20 04:30 PM
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fast68plymouth
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First thing I’d do is get a performance calibrated 4160 carb body(like a 3310) and see exactly how the secondary idle ciduit is done on one of those, then duplicate it....... along with using a tunable secondary metering plate.
In the past, when I’ve used those with big cams, I’d just remove the plate and swap to a block...... and then add 4 corner idle. Which is also what the guy did to the carb in the link. However, neither of those things are legal for Stock.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2767167
04/22/20 05:23 PM
04/22/20 05:23 PM
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lewtot184
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First thing I’d do is get a performance calibrated 4160 carb body(like a 3310) and see exactly how the secondary idle ciduit is done on one of those, then duplicate it....... along with using a tunable secondary metering plate.
In the past, when I’ve used those with big cams, I’d just remove the plate and swap to a block...... and then add 4 corner idle. Which is also what the guy did to the carb in the link. However, neither of those things are legal for Stock. i don't think it would be rocket science to duplicate the 3310 or similar design.
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: lewtot184]
#2767197
04/22/20 07:14 PM
04/22/20 07:14 PM
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fast68plymouth
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For sure.
The carb in the link had the secondary air bleed channel drilled all the way through to the bottom of the main body and into the baseplate where the transfer slots are.
I don’t recall the 3310’s being that way(but they might be). That’s really the main thing I’d be looking at.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: varunner]
#2767411
04/23/20 12:38 PM
04/23/20 12:38 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Can you stall it by closing the mixture screws?
Judging by the pics of the baseplate, the primary slots look rather long. My guess is....... there is too much showing after you opened the blades more to change the idle speed from 1100 to 1400.
Have you qualified any of the other low speed concerns? Still starts good? Idles any better/worse in gear?
Also, what is the idle speed in gear, and what is the vacuum reading idling in gear?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2767419
04/23/20 01:03 PM
04/23/20 01:03 PM
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varunner
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Before I opened up the restriction, I could stall it no problem. Only about .03" of the slot was exposed. Now, you can;t stall it. I'm sure I now have the throttle blades opened up enough to be on transfer system. It was hard to start this last time. Before that easy to start. RPM in gear hasn't changed much. Now idle speed in gear is 1100 10.5 vac. Idle is 1400 13 vac Can you stall it by closing the mixture screws?
Judging by the pics of the baseplate, the primary slots look rather long. My guess is....... there is too much showing after you opened the blades more to change the idle speed from 1100 to 1400.
Have you qualified any of the other low speed concerns? Still starts good? Idles any better/worse in gear?
Also, what is the idle speed in gear, and what is the vacuum reading idling in gear?
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: lewtot184]
#2767420
04/23/20 01:06 PM
04/23/20 01:06 PM
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varunner
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With this cam, not sure how low the idle can go. Before I opened the restriction, mixture screws were responsive. Remember the throttle blades drilled, so I don't have to open the throttle too far. Except for now since I opened the restriction 1400rpm is too high to try and adjust the mixture screws. i'm skeptical about being too rich if the only idle feed is two .033" jets. you don't think your pushing thru the needle and seats do you? I have you measured the seat orifice to see if it's in that .075" range? you may have more than one issue going on.
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: varunner]
#2767421
04/23/20 01:11 PM
04/23/20 01:11 PM
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fast68plymouth
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That’s amazingly high vacuum in gear for that combo.
My 383, with slightly more cam was about 7-8” in neutral and 4-5” in gear.
I’d probably start by just lowering the idle speed a bit and seeing how it behaved.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2767422
04/23/20 01:13 PM
04/23/20 01:13 PM
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varunner
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I'm impressed too. guess I finally got the intake sealed...... That’s amazingly high vacuum in gear for that combo.
My 383, with slightly more cam was about 7-8” in neutral and 4-5” in gear.
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2767426
04/23/20 01:17 PM
04/23/20 01:17 PM
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The idle quality now is much rougher. It's not going to like lowering it. That’s amazingly high vacuum in gear for that combo.
My 383, with slightly more cam was about 7-8” in neutral and 4-5” in gear.
I’d probably start by just lowering the idle speed a bit and seeing how it behaved.
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: varunner]
#2767428
04/23/20 01:20 PM
04/23/20 01:20 PM
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fast68plymouth
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I guess the question that may not have been asked is......
If it was idling fine before, with the blades in the proper position, mixture screws in the proper range, and it was starting well, had plenty of vacuum, etc....... exactly what was the issue you were trying to cure?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: varunner]
#2767433
04/23/20 01:31 PM
04/23/20 01:31 PM
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fast68plymouth
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The idle quality now is much rougher. It's not going to like lowering it. That’s amazingly high vacuum in gear for that combo.
My 383, with slightly more cam was about 7-8” in neutral and 4-5” in gear.
I’d probably start by just lowering the idle speed a bit and seeing how it behaved. Leaner idle mixtures often run “smoother” and quieter...... but the idle in gear isn’t as strong(the motor won’t stay running in gear and the engine speed just starts to fall off). My good reworked 850DP sounds like you added 10* of camshaft duration compared to using most normal carbs(at idle and low speed part throttle)....... but it actually makes the motor idle stronger in low vacuum situations. I would say your idle vacuum is unusually high for a typical Stocker(I have no idea why that is). Going to a richer idle circuit is a crutch to provide adequate idle fuel when the signal(vacuum) is quite low. 13” is more in line with what I see in a typical hot street/strip car.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Where is IFR in this metering block
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2767442
04/23/20 01:52 PM
04/23/20 01:52 PM
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varunner
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As I already mentioned "I've done a fair amount of working on this carb and it's functioning "OK" but could use quite a bit of fine tuning. As far as the IFR goes, the engine idles decent, but has wanted to die when put in gear. " I guess the question that may not have been asked is......
If it was idling fine before, with the blades in the proper position, mixture screws in the proper range, and it was starting well, had plenty of vacuum, etc....... exactly what was the issue you were trying to cure?
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