"No spark" head scratcher
#2762991
04/12/20 11:31 AM
04/12/20 11:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532 Charlotte, NC
Kowal
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
Charlotte, NC
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I picked up a 440 U code '70 Challenger. Was restored something like 15 years, had about 37 miles put on it over the last 10. The car was a "reference" restoration back in the day, with a powertrain by Frank Badalson, etc. Totally stock, even uses the solenoids on the carter carb and the points distributor. The coil is stock. Everything is showroom stock. Really nice car.
Anyway, I had a few things to fix (water pump leaked, brake booster solidified, and so on) and have reached the test and tune phase. First driving session, ran really great, loads of power, just a few non-motor tweaks and some timing hit or miss adjustments. Second day, took it out again, ran really well until the problem started. The "lots of power" started to seem a little less, very subtle, seemed to be a slight miss in certain circumstances. Drove it some more and the slight miss became a very pronounced miss from the exhaust, not quite a backfire. I head back home with it and it stalls as I pull in to my side street. Starts right back up, goes down the street and stalls again as I pull in to my driveway, sort of missing the whole time. Get it started again, very easily, almost get to the garage where it stalls again, this time it won't start.
OK, new day, trying to figure what is wrong with it. Here is what I know...has a 1/2 tank of fresh gas (race and today's premium mixed). Plenty of gas shooting down the carb throat when the pedal is pressed. The easilycranks easily, no strange noises, Pulled a plug wire, checked with a spark tester to ground, no spark when cranking. Pulled the coil to distributor wire, no spark when trying to crank it, holding it near the exhaust manifold. In my pile of parts I had a coil and ballast and swapped both with no change. When the ignition key is in run position, the carb solenoid normally extends like it should, until now when it does not. The distributor solenoid is making a buzzing noise when the key is in run position, but I had an extra solenoid which got rid of the buzz but made no difference on the problem or the carb solenoid not extending all of the sudden. It did have the radio noise suppressor, I disconnected it in case it was a short.
So any ideas? I replaced then positive battery harness as I freshened up the car, the rest of the harness are as I got it. The engine harness seems to be not original, stock appearing, but sort of loosely wrapped which makes me wonder if someone had been in it. Everything under the dash is clean, unmolested, looks original. I have a Sun Distributor machine, before taking the car out I swapped cap, rotor, points and condenser, Dwell was a solid 30 degrees. Cap and rotor are NOS.
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#2762999
04/12/20 11:51 AM
04/12/20 11:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840 The Swamp
Sixpak
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
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Check the wiring connection at the bulkhead. Down by the steering column at the firewall. Remove it and clean the contacts. Then try again. If it starts now you want to really clean it up cause you’ve found the problem. The ignition feed on that terminal block carries a fair amount of current and is susceptible to failure over the years. Ditto the above, and once validated, start checking for voltage at the ballast, then the coil, and up the line.
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: stumpy]
#2763054
04/12/20 01:55 PM
04/12/20 01:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
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All the above.
But a quick check is to see if you have 9 Volts at the coil Positive lug on run and 12 volt on start.
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: Dave_J]
#2763090
04/12/20 03:18 PM
04/12/20 03:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532 Charlotte, NC
Kowal
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
Charlotte, NC
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Thanks for input. I had not yet checked the connectors coming off the column, though very possible that I disturbed something as I was putting the booster back in (I am 6’5”, 240...I pretty much accidentally disturb stuff all the time!).
I did check voltage across the coil. Getting 9 volts when checking positive coil terminal to engine block while car is turning over with the starter. Can’t check run as it won’t start. Swapped Ballast Resistors and got the same reading. Getting about 8 volts from one side of the coil to the other when trying to start the car
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: Kowal]
#2763096
04/12/20 03:24 PM
04/12/20 03:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
S.E. Michigan
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Usually all the grounds are bad on anything perfectly painted and restored to the Nth degree. Sometimes Folks are shy about sanding off that perfect paint to create good grounds. I'd definitely look there.
Look at resistance from engine ground to battery negative. I'd check for 6 to 9 volts at coil + in "run", 12+/battery voltage in start. Check coil primary and secondary resistance, also check continuity from the case to the windings as any sort of a circuit found there constitutes a shorted coil winding.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: stumpy]
#2763116
04/12/20 04:18 PM
04/12/20 04:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532 Charlotte, NC
Kowal
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
Charlotte, NC
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Sorry on the run...mental lapse.
So on start still just a bit over 9 volt. On run, 7.8 volts.
I already took the ground cable off the block earlier today, chased bolt and threaded holes, all paint off the manifold and cable in the contact area. Show 0 loss from battery to manifold bolt.. Radiator support ground is clean as well.
I have three coils I can swap with. I started with a resto coil at 1.9 ohms primary and 10.1K ohms secondary, The one in there now from this morning is 1.5 primary and 9.8 secondary...it is the one that came with the car, looks like an old NOS unit, I just swapped it back in. The third is a resto that I haven’t yet done anything with and is 1.8 primary and 10.1 secondary.
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: Kowal]
#2763121
04/12/20 04:30 PM
04/12/20 04:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532 Charlotte, NC
Kowal
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
Charlotte, NC
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Weird stuff now... I am getting zero voltage with the key on to the carb idle solenoid. Connector to meter to negative ground. But, I am getting 13.1V from the connector to the positive battery cable if the key is on or off...means I have a short somewhere or just worthless data?
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: RTSrunner]
#2763305
04/13/20 08:53 AM
04/13/20 08:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532 Charlotte, NC
Kowal
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
Charlotte, NC
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Great input. I will have a chance to take a further look this afternoon. More soon
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: moparx]
#2763520
04/13/20 04:26 PM
04/13/20 04:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532 Charlotte, NC
Kowal
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
Charlotte, NC
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Took a look at the harnesses. Didn’t have to go very far. The bulkhead connector slot mating with the engine harness terminal going to the alternator main terminal (heavier gage black wire) is melted. Looks like it happened a while ago and someone took a new engine harness and just went for it plugging it in. Sort of remarkable there was a connection there at all, the bulkhead is distorted a bit, small chunks of plastic are missing, the bulkhead terminal is corroded.
As coincidence...I had noticed as I took it apart a few weeks back that the spot for the coil high tension cable on the distributor cap was burnt, I thought it was strange that someone would use that cap and I simply went ahead and replaced it. So who knows what happened and how it was set up before.
The heavy gage red wire coming out of the column as part of that ignitions switch harness is clean, but the plug looks like it also had been melted a bit at one time and someone cleaned up the hole with a drill and a file before putting the terminal back in. There are also a couple of splices in the cables coming from the ignition switch, to the smaller gage red wires. The harness connector connection was just probably “OK” for that wire.
So I just stopped there. Have some work to do replacing a few things before trying the whole thing again. I also am going to (gasp) switch it over to electronic ignition while I am at it. I have had solid performance across a dozen or so cars from the Mopar ECU’s, and now the JEGS blue ECU (still have some old made in America Mopar units as well). I know points work great, but I have an electronic distributor all set up and ready to go that I had been keeping for a while with a nice curve and solid performance, time to use it. Plenty of time to work on the car, can’t go anywhere with all that is going on, no car shows or cruises for a bit.
Thanks to all!!
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: Kowal]
#2763603
04/13/20 07:13 PM
04/13/20 07:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122 Auburn WA
Dave_J
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,122
Auburn WA
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You can get bulkhead connectors off Ebay but they are for 14 gauge and smaller. I have crimped a 10 gauge wire in one and then soldered it just to make sure.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Male-Female-14-16-AWG-Gauge-Wiring-Harness-Terminal-Crimp-Connectors-NOS/192502001151?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Retired, US ARMY 1973-1994 ASE mechanic, Electrical 1994-1997 Retired GTE/VERIZON/FRONTIER 1997-2015
Posting cheap tech help (CRAP) here since Nov 97, 1000's of posts, some may be good.
03 Suzuki Burgman 650(Burger King) Scooter 65 Formula S Cuda 78 Little Red Express Truck 98 Buick Regal (wifes car)
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Re: "No spark" head scratcher
[Re: dragon slayer]
#2763716
04/14/20 06:20 AM
04/14/20 06:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532 Charlotte, NC
Kowal
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
Charlotte, NC
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Under the dash I can see a couple of splices. Going to have to decide how to proceed on this. Could just replace the bulkhead connector and check each terminal as I go and repair where needed, or go for replacing the under dash harness. I normally work on B-Bodies where there is room to work, not sure how easy this will be on an E-Body.
I also noticed the run position on the key is sloppy, several degrees of slop on the return from the start position. Given the sloppy connector and splices in the harness I will replace the starter switch in the column.
I don’t mind all the harness work, but it is less fun to be sure!
Overall this is a really, really, nice car inside, underneath and throughout. But it was restored twenty years ago, and driven 37 miles since 2012. It has been amazing how the rubber suspension parts have turned to soft goo, etc. New tires, various new suspension parts including the leaf springs which were original and had taken a pretty lazy set (I used Eaton Spring with a +1 inch setting, came out great, swapped the part number stamp leafs). The water pump seal was practically none existent, the radiator hoses were both leaking. The brake booster had turned to granite, MC leaked internally. Has been unusual getting this back to being a reliable ride, though fun. I drove it more in test this past weekend, about 40 miles, than miles it saw in a decade....knowing that I would have a new list of things to do when done. Well, I certainly got it.
'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T (These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com) P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
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