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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: 360view] #2761866
04/09/20 11:33 AM
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DIY oxygen concentrator using lithium from batteries

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-cost-effective-oxygen.html

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The problem is that Lithium X-zeolite is expensive and only highly specialized companies offer this material. Stark and his team have therefore produced the microporous material themselves from a desiccant—a drying agent—and lithium batteries—at home in their spare rooms that they converted into makeshift research laboratories. Stark and his team have calculated that three good laptop batteries can produce enough Lithium for a patient ward.

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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: 360view] #2761867
04/09/20 11:35 AM
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At risk of COVID-19
Then exercise at least 5 days per week

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-immune.html

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"Exercise has anti-inflammatory benefits and promotes cellular repair, cell production and producing immune cells that help you fight off disease," he said.

In a study of 1,002 adults published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine in 2011, people who exercised at least five times a week cut their risk of colds by nearly half compared to people who were largely sedentary. Many of those who did get sick had less severe symptoms.

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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: 360view] #2761874
04/09/20 11:49 AM
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Flu and military decisions in 1918

https://www.realclearinvestigations...h_run_viral_in_the_great_war_123047.html

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Wilson’s closest adviser, Cary T. Grayson, happened to be a medical doctor. Barry suggests that Grayson is the one who convinced the president to confront his army chief of staff about the disease felling the ranks. In early October 1918, Wilson met with Gen. Peyton March at the White House. The president said, “General March, I have had representations sent to me by men whose ability and patriotism are unquestioned that I should stop the shipment of men to France until the epidemic of influenza is under control.”

The general responded, “Every such soldier who has died [of influenza] just as surely played his part as his comrade who died in France.”

That may not have been the soundest military practice. For every soldier who showed up in France debilitated by the flu, others had to care for him. Sending more troops when many of those troops were sick only reduced the power and readiness of American forces in Europe. The epidemic “rendered hundreds of thousands of military personnel non-effective,” Carol R. Byerly wrote in the journal “Public Health Reports.” “During the American Expeditionary Forces' campaign at Meuse-Argonne, the epidemic diverted urgently needed resources from combat support to transporting and caring for the sick and the dead.”

Wilson let General March have his way.

Some 16,000 American troops died of disease in Europe, on top of the 30,000 who succumbed in stateside training camps.

Snip

It’s not that there wasn’t a federal public health service. It just did very little for the public. Wilson had signed an executive order in 1917, putting the health service under military control. Resources that might have mitigated the suffering on the home front in 1918 went to the army. Perhaps the most important resource, nurses, were in short supply when the influenza epidemic began to spread. Barry writes that hospitals had been stripped of their most essential workers and that “many private hospitals around the country [were] so short staffed that they closed, and remained closed until the war ended.”
Snip

One might argue that Wilson had a war to win and couldn’t afford to get distracted by anything so pedestrian as the flu. But other wartime leaders recognized the threat diseases pose. On July 4, 1775, George Washington, newly made commander of the Continental Army, instituted a regime of social distancing to keep smallpox from spreading among his soldiers. There was a quarantined smallpox hospital near a pond near Cambridge, Mass. Washington made the pond off limits. “No person is to be allowed to go to fresh-water pond a fishing or on any other occasion as there may be a danger of introducing the smallpox into the army.” It was one of the first orders Washington issued, and he never lost sight of the threat epidemics posed to soldiers and civilians alike. The man who would become the first president urged his fellow Founders to have “the utmost vigilance against this most dangerous enemy.”

End quote

Smallpox had an effect on the failure to conquer Canada during the Revolutionary War

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: 360view] #2761877
04/09/20 11:55 AM
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Regardless of whether China lies about the number of people infected there is irrelevant because currently we are the most infected country in the world by a long shot. What's the point of disputing that? So what if China claims 82K cases but really has 820K? Does that affect whats happening here?

Whats astonishing is that we continue to find excuses for inaction and pretend it's not a big deal. What is it going to take to change that mindset?


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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: RMCHRGR] #2761880
04/09/20 12:00 PM
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Completely shutting down the largest economy in the world and telling everyone to stay in their houses indefinitely is inaction? confused

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: Mastershake340] #2761884
04/09/20 12:07 PM
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Pennsylvania Governor just canceled school for the rest of the year. It’s ok to fish side by side but we gotta cancel school. Lol.


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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: 360view] #2761888
04/09/20 12:19 PM
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3 subspecies of virus now circulating

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200409085644.htm

Article does not say which is “milder”
just attempts to trace paths of infection

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: Mastershake340] #2761907
04/09/20 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mastershake340
Completely shutting down the largest economy in the world and telling everyone to stay in their houses indefinitely is inaction? confused


There won't be any economy if enough people keep getting sick and dying.

But OK, to your point - 75% of the states in the union currently have "some" form of restrictive stay-at-home policies but no complete lockdown. There are STILL 6-7 states that currently have few to no stay-at home restrictions including states that border others with high rates of confirmed infections. That's inaction becuase social distancing has proved to be an effective method of slowing the spread of the virus. PA fishing notwithstanding...

Can you say that those places that didn't make people stay home are doing 'better' economically than the hard hit spots? Maybe for the time being but the virus has shown to pop up in waves in different places. What happens when those places with lax social distancing policies sees infection rates rise quickly and have to scramble for resources?

If we had an early, coordinated response at the Federal level using the resources and manpower available to it to first acknowledge then confront and ultimately control the spread of the virus we would be a much better place than we are right now. I would also call that "inaction".

Should we have had a national stay-at-home order in early March? I believe so. That would have been definitive action. Clearly there are those who do not think that would have been a good idea. IMO, we are paying for that dice roll right now.


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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: RMCHRGR] #2761913
04/09/20 01:23 PM
04/09/20 01:23 PM
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The economies in countries that have done little social distancing are still getting hit pretty hard.

So we basically have two options:
1. Social distance to save a bunch of lives, and have a bad economy for a while.
2. Don't social distance, lose a whole bunch more lives, and have a bad economy for a while.

shruggy

If we had done a strict nationwide distancing in early March, we could have probably snuffed out what virus we had, which would have given us time to ramp up our testing and contact tracing abilities. Then we possibly could have loosened general restrictions while restricting/isolating new arrivals.

But we didn't.


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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: 360view] #2761918
04/09/20 01:41 PM
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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: 360view] #2761919
04/09/20 01:45 PM
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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: Mastershake340] #2761923
04/09/20 01:47 PM
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Mastershake340, I'm a guy that likes to explore all options to fix problems (Engineer). Unfortunately Science and virus life cycle mutations are throwing curve-balls. Will you peel off the onion layers you present in your posts and outline how you feel the shutdown should be repealed?

I'll add that I think this shutdown has had some beneficial outfall:

1) More cleanliness will reduce disease transmission.
2) People may save $ for a rainy day.
3) Governments will build relationships with other Governments.
4) People will place higher expectations on their Government.
5) Climate benefits (many people of India are seeing the Himalayas for the first time).
6) Restoring peoples sense of community.
7) Restoring a more simplified lifestyle less encumbered by unnecessary luxuries.
8) Self reliance

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: srt] #2761938
04/09/20 02:31 PM
04/09/20 02:31 PM
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I’m an engineer too and I’ve gotten frustrated by the fact that people are getting all up in arms and forming strong opinions when in fact we are in a situation where to tell the truth “nobody knows nothing”. The facts and data change by the day, if not hour, for example for the last month we’ve been hearing “why don’t we have enough ventilators? If we’d taken this seriously in January we could have built 10s of thousands of ventilators and headed off this problem! First off, as an engineer in manufacturing I can say you can’t just start spitting out tens of thousands of a complex machines overnight, or even over the course of months, especially when the supply chain is in shambles and we’ve sadly come to rely on one “bad actor” country I won’t name here for many critical components.
Then we hear New York, the hardest hit area so far hasn’t had a shortage of ventilators. And now it’s coming out that ventilators aren’t that effective for critical patients. So all the screaming and hand wringing about ventilators might well have been misguided.
At this point there is still a lot more unknown than known. We don’t even know the numbers of people infected, so death rates and critical case %s are at best an educated guess, and at worst a WAG. Could be 3%, I’ve seen other estimates it’s under 1%.
We won’t know until the future after the dust has settled.
Confucius said something to the effect that a wise man is not wise because of how much he knows, but because he realizes how much he doesn’t know.
Maybe my irritation and frustration is from being constantly bombarded by hearing people who are so far from wise.

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: Mastershake340] #2761941
04/09/20 02:44 PM
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The urgency of this issue has caused a lot of the problem. It’s like suddenly discovering your house is on fire. Maybe you grab an extinguisher first, or maybe you grab the phone, or maybe you just run.

But you don’t do nothing. We are reacting in what seems like a prudent manner, with foresight. We don’t have a lot of hindsight, yet.

And thankfully people aren’t dropping dead on every corner, so maybe our actions are good, or maybe the bug isn’t as deadly as we think it might be.

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: Mastershake340] #2761966
04/09/20 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mastershake340
I’m an engineer too and I’ve gotten frustrated by the fact that people are getting all up in arms and forming strong opinions when in fact we are in a situation where to tell the truth “nobody knows nothing”. The facts and data change by the day, if not hour, for example for the last month we’ve been hearing “why don’t we have enough ventilators? If we’d taken this seriously in January we could have built 10s of thousands of ventilators and headed off this problem!


The one fact we can all understand is that there is no cure for this virus and that if you get it, you could die. I'll refer you to the animated graph I posted earlier. Watch our number of cases go up from March 10 to now. If you need evidence of how serious this situation is here in our country, that would be it. In one month we went from a couple thousand cases to a half million. That's not just in one locale either, it's everywhere including rural areas.

The arguments about equipment are real. Now, no one place needs 30,000 ventilators all at one time but there very well may be more populated places that need 15 to 20K. You are correct that these things don't grow on trees. But, if there was a federally coordinated system that could verify nationwide inventory and then facilitate quick distribution to the places that need them most, don't you think that would be worthwhile? It would definitely help to ease people's minds (both medical and patients) to know that should the need arise, they will be taken care of.

The PPE stuff is also a really bad situation. The government could have asked our biggest manufacturers that make any number of other things to tool up and start making gowns, masks gloves visors etc. Some have stepped up voluntarily but if it was a federal mandate to start making this stuff so our medical care personnel can do their job without worrying about getting infected, things might look a little different and the hysteria over all this equipment might be a little less worrisome. Save for ventilators, masks, gowns, gloves etc. are generally single use only but the medical care people and first repsonders are being put into a situation where they have to re-use this stuff sometimes for days and weeks. Having that stuff readily available would prevent some number of new infections.

For me, the major problem with this epidemic is that there was straight up denial at the highest level of government for weeks while the virus spread unchecked. It's hard to say what could have or should have been done but one has to imagine that pushing the idea that this was something that wouldn't affect us was a gross miscalculation and irresponsible to say the least.


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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2761968
04/09/20 04:02 PM
04/09/20 04:02 PM
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That’s a very good analogy. It certainly wouldn’t be constructive at the time to scream at your wife that if she’d changed the smoke detector batteries last fall during time change like the fire department recommends, maybe we would have caught the fire early enough to put out!
Although a pandemic isn’t something that was never considered before with no planning done, it hasn’t been something at the top of anyone’s triage list for awhile, and therefore we are dealing with it on the fly and the response is far from perfect. It appears that the last time it was a big focus was 15 years ago.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1283304/
I wish people would panic less however and maybe step away from the news a little. Bottom line is that there is over a 99% chance you won’t die of this. I get the impression many think there is a 99% chance of dying of it. I’d rather have a 100% chance of not dying to be sure, but I’m not willing to cower in my basement for the next year hiding from the world to achieve that 100% metric either.

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: RMCHRGR] #2761976
04/09/20 04:21 PM
04/09/20 04:21 PM
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The fact is that government can’t do anything well so if you enjoy complaining, your local, county, state and federal governments will never let you down! Mayor of LA didn’t cancel their marathon a month ago, mayor of NY was telling people to go out to eat at a Chinese restaurant around the same time, so to point the finger at just the feds for being short sighted, is short sighted, in retrospect everyone dropped the ball. Which is easy to say in hindsight.
I sure hope when all is said and done, we rethink our supply chain. Given our dependence on Asia, I don’t know how quickly we could have ramped up PPE production even if our government was run by perfect individuals many naively think exist. I guarantee that even US manufacturers use foreign sourced material to assemble their product. A 3M mask likely has foreign made filtering material even if it’s assembled here.
I’m more than a little biased on the subject, I lost a job I’d had for 14 years when my then employer started moving production offshore. Shut down plants in US and Canada, put a lot of my friends and respected colleagues out of work too. Happened at thousands of companies over the last 2 decades.
One can hope one good change will be a rethinking of this issue and shifting production of critical items back here. twocents

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: Mastershake340] #2761999
04/09/20 06:31 PM
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All very good points. I think we were on a course to bring more manufacturing back here, or at least keep it here. If one good thing comes out of this I hope it is that we become more self reliant and the big corporations take a second look at chasing every last penny of profit. Wishful thinking I know but something has to change. Corporate greed has gone on long enough. When is enough, enough? Do you really need to make $5 billion instead of $4 billion?
Don't get me wrong I'm not a wealth redistribution advocate or anything like that but greed is greed.


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Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: Mastershake340] #2762009
04/09/20 06:50 PM
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I appreciate to see meaningful exchange. Knowing there are many ways to get through this there are a few things we do know about the virus and how we got here. I wonder if we have the best possible (a'la dream team) working on on our behalf. Our government is in flux pared down with many positions vacated, replaced, and void of experience. The country is bigger than the biggest businesses, we all own a stake and as an owner I'm concerned.
Ever think how much ford was awarded to produce 50,000 ventilators in 100 days and GM gets a $490m for ventilators. How many will we ultimately need? Seems many thought we would need many, many. Who made the original projections and did sheltering substantially reduce the amount of ventilators needed?
We seem to have bought into drug therapy that many medical reports and patient outcome say was fruitless.
The virus will run it's course taking many more. If we relax and return to the ways of old the virus will resurge. Perhaps we need to relax, but with a new model. Reduce capacity of restaurants, theaters, busses, airplanes, etc., anywhere people are in close proximity. The tough thing will be to stop people that are sick from going out into public places.
It is ironic you mention supply chain. I think the first place we as a country should look is our food supply. It could be tragic to have our food supply interrupted. Had the virus taken off 3 months earlier, and if field workers were infected we'd be in a very different situation right now. As it is I feel pretty certain with good planning and vision we can recover. The thing we as a people need to start thinking of is what is important. How do the citizenry use their power to get back quality goods and get rid of design obsolescence. Probably a good time to start thinking about how did we get into the situation of contracts for phones, tv, etc. Bare cupboards seem the norm, at homes, and also in our agencies.

Re: The official Coronavirus thread [Re: 360view] #2762012
04/09/20 07:01 PM
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What is the most glaring thing that we are short of in our “national stockpile” ?

Food

We ought to have three or more years of food.

I hope the whole
“what should be in our stockpiles”
question gets a hard eyed review.

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