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Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? #2760811
04/06/20 03:39 PM
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We are going to be firing up a 70 440 HP2 out of my buddies Superbird on my test stand. Car is an automatic, so I was wondering can we simply install a regular zero balance flywheel on it for the test stand?

I've never had a 70-72 heavy rod 4spd, so was not sure what, if anything, is unique for the flywheel.

Thanks.
Chris

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: cdp] #2760814
04/06/20 03:44 PM
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You will need the flywheel for an externally balance heavy rod 440 engine to get the balance right.

Last edited by rarefish; 04/06/20 03:49 PM.
Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: cdp] #2760815
04/06/20 03:45 PM
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By heavy rod you mean six pack rod correct?

If so you need the correct damper and flywheel/converter.

If you are just going to start it and run for s bit I think the worst you will get is a vibration - how bad? I personally never tried that.

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: Transman] #2760832
04/06/20 04:12 PM
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Yes, 6-pack rods. Correct balancer.

So..how do I tell heavy rod flywheel?

A buddy just pulled apart a heavy rod 72-440 that was in his roadrunner and I was thinking of borrowing his. But he tossed the harmonic balancer (duh!!) as he thought it was shot. I wanted to look at it to see if all his parts matched properly before hand. (PS, non-mopar guy, so nice lesson for him.) Engine definitely had heavy rods, though.

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: cdp] #2760835
04/06/20 04:24 PM
04/06/20 04:24 PM
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The '72 heavy rod 440 didn't need external balance because it had lighter low-compression pistons.

You can externally balance a neutral flywheel by using the diagram below.

440 Flywheel.jpg

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Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: John_Kunkel] #2760843
04/06/20 04:46 PM
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Thanks!

That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for!

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: cdp] #2760880
04/06/20 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cdp
Thanks!

That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for!


Make sure you orient the crank bolt pattern as shown in the diagram - i’m sure you noticed one of the offset crank bolts.

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: cdp] #2760883
04/06/20 07:14 PM
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The 1970 440-6bbl had the external balance weights on the torque converter. can you find a 1970 440-6bbl flywheel? Or drill a standard flywheel as noted on the previous diagram. You need to install that to make sure the balance is correct. I would not fire the engine without the correct external balance. Is that a numbers matching engine for the Superbird?
Jim

Last edited by RealWing; 04/06/20 07:17 PM.

1970 Superbird 440-6bbl, auto
1969 Barracuda 340-4bbl, FB Formula S auto
1969 Barracuda 6.1 L Hemi, 5 speed, Convertible
2015 BMW K1600 GTL
Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: RealWing] #2760896
04/06/20 08:03 PM
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Yep, original motor.

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: cdp] #2760908
04/06/20 08:35 PM
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Has any of the internal rotating motor parts, rods, piston, crankshaft been changed or is it still all stock?
I'm trying to remember when the 1970 Superbird cars where made, not all the 1970 440 HP, especially 375 HP motors, came with the "6 pack" heavy rods. Do you know for sure that it does have the 6 pack rods?
You already said it had the 6 pack balancer on it, correct?
I don't envy you or him, this is not a good dilemma to be in work I would take it apart now and have it balanced with the same parts your going to run in the car
I ended up with a V code 1970 Charger R/T 4 speed car that had a scheduled production date of 10-26-1969, a early car. That car had the original six pack motor replace under warranty in April of 1970, it still had the external balanced flywheel and balancer on it when I got it, the Flywheel was drilled with a big bit like shown in the pictures John added on here scope.
I wish that I had measure the diameter and depth of those holes, but I didn't realcrazy

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 04/06/20 08:37 PM.

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Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2760963
04/06/20 11:33 PM
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It has the heavy rods, I was there when the motor was assembled. It was NOT rebalanced. Bored .030 over and 2355 sixpack pistons installed. They probably should have had it rebalanced, but pistons calculate to be 15 grams heavier than the stock ones.

Its a trailer queen, so I'm doubting it will have any issues in the balancing department.

Last edited by cdp; 04/07/20 08:15 AM.
Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: cdp] #2760965
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I did a ring and bearing job on a 1971 440HP four barrel motor that had the heavier big six pack type rods in it, ,that long block went into a 1968 Charger 440 car along with the 1968 balancer and torque converter,. the customer did not want to have it balanced and I didn't know about the bigger rod motors being externally balanced back then whiney That motor had a shake in it around 2200 to 2400 RPM in any gear at light part throttle driving that never got fixed work
ARE YOU feeling really LUCKY whistling

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 04/06/20 11:42 PM.

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Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2760996
04/07/20 06:36 AM
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If the engine builder balanced it, he would have to have the balancer and the flywheel, or Torque converter for external balance no? Are you sure it was not internally balanced? You did not really answer or I missed it, is the bird a 6 pack bird? The 70 440-4 would be internally balanced engine.

Typically to run, you can use what you have to start the motor. Buddy who builds street and race motor hemi/440, uses a flywheel and automatic housing shell on the test stand.

Building a 440 currently for a show car, and it has 6 pack pistons, standard rods, and cast crank. Was figuring it would need the cast crank balance, but turns out it was pretty well balanced as is. Windup using normal balancer, and it will be internally balanced.

So you really need to ask the engine builder how it is balanced. If internal, you can use what ever you have to get the engine started on the stand.

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: dragon slayer] #2761014
04/07/20 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dragon slayer
The 70 440-4 would be internally balanced engine.


Are you sure? I have a 1970 440 HP single four barrel engine that has what looks like the 3512017 damper for the externally balanced engines. http://www.440source.com/dampers.htm I can take a photo if it comes to that.


Wife says too many cars, liquidation coming soon......
Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: 6PakBee] #2761021
04/07/20 08:23 AM
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The machine shop did the machining only. Assembly was done in house by friend. Again, engine specs, factory 1970 440 HP, externally balanced (from factory), heavy rod motor, automatic. Only major change was using Sealed Power 2355 pistons, to keep compression, as 2266's are junk low comrpession. Engine was not rebalanced.

By the way, I just rebuilt my #s matching 71 GTX engine, with heavy rods, and same combination (2355 pistons, no rebalance), and its probably the smoothest 440s I've ever owned.

I just want to be sure which flywheel to use.

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: cdp] #2761037
04/07/20 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by cdp
The machine shop did the machining only. Assembly was done in house by friend. Again, engine specs, factory 1970 440 HP, externally balanced (from factory), heavy rod motor, automatic. Only major change was using Sealed Power 2355 pistons, to keep compression, as 2266's are junk low comrpession. Engine was not rebalanced.

By the way, I just rebuilt my #s matching 71 GTX engine, with heavy rods, and same combination (2355 pistons, no rebalance), and its probably the smoothest 440s I've ever owned.

I just want to be sure which flywheel to use.


Okay, you are going to need to use the unbalanced flywheel, or the equivalent. From John's drawing the unbalance is 6.5 inch/ounces or one ounce 6 1/2 inches from the center of the crank. The factory got the unbalance by drilling in the specified locations. What I would do if I were you is to take a neutral balanced flywheel and ADD weight 180 degrees from the drilled location at the pressure plate bolts. Yes, it would take some math to do the splitting as the pressure plate bolting is not directly in line but it is not advanced calculus. This way you can get the engine run in AND not modify a neutral balanced flywheel.


Wife says too many cars, liquidation coming soon......
Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: 6PakBee] #2761041
04/07/20 09:15 AM
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Thanks, that was something I had in mind, was to flip the weight on the other side. Most people don't want to drill holes in the flywheel for a temporary purpose...LOL.

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: 6PakBee] #2761186
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Okay, you are going to need to use the unbalanced flywheel, or the equivalent. From John's drawing the unbalance is 6.5 inch/ounces or one ounce 6 1/2 inches from the center of the crank. The factory got the unbalance by drilling in the specified locations. What I would do if I were you is to take a neutral balanced flywheel and ADD weight 180 degrees from the drilled location at the pressure plate bolts. Yes, it would take some math to do the splitting as the pressure plate bolting is not directly in line but it is not advanced calculus. This way you can get the engine run in AND not modify a neutral balanced flywheel.
Good thinking. For just starting and run checks below 2500 rpm, you can get it close enough. The better the math (and scale), the better the results.

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2761260
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Has any of the internal rotating motor parts, rods, piston, crankshaft been changed or is it still all stock?
I'm trying to remember when the 1970 Superbird cars where made, not all the 1970 440 HP, especially 375 HP motors, came with the "6 pack" heavy rods. Do you know for sure that it does have the 6 pack rods?
You already said it had the 6 pack balancer on it, correct?
I don't envy you or him, this is not a good dilemma to be in work I would take it apart now and have it balanced with the same parts your going to run in the car
I ended up with a V code 1970 Charger R/T 4 speed car that had a scheduled production date of 10-26-1969, a early car. That car had the original six pack motor replace under warranty in April of 1970, it still had the external balanced flywheel and balancer on it when I got it, the Flywheel was drilled with a big bit like shown in the pictures John added on here scope.
I wish that I had measure the diameter and depth of those holes, but I didn't realcrazy



All 70 440 HP engines came with heavy rods non HP came with LY

Re: Heavy rod 440 on test stand: What flywheel? [Re: moparwizard] #2761406
04/08/20 09:01 AM
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Balance Weight Splitting This may be of some help. There are many others, I just picked this at random.


Wife says too many cars, liquidation coming soon......
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