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Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 62maxwgn] #2752987
03/17/20 11:30 PM
03/17/20 11:30 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Me thinks it depends on what part number carbs and year your working on scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: Cab_Burge] #2752995
03/18/20 12:41 AM
03/18/20 12:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Me thinks it depends on what part number carbs and year your working on scope


Cab,I've been restoring sixpack carbs since the early 90's,"never" had/seen any that the end sight plugs were higher than the center,all of these are as I said. shruggy

Picture 507.jpgPB070472.JPG
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 62maxwgn] #2754419
03/22/20 08:39 AM
03/22/20 08:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,180
upstate western ny
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Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Me thinks it depends on what part number carbs and year your working on scope


Cab,I've been restoring sixpack carbs since the early 90's,"never" had/seen any that the end sight plugs were higher than the center,all of these are as I said. shruggy


Bill after looking at all the carbs
How do you remember whose are whose . LOL ..

to the OP .. get rid of that teflon tape on the connections its gonna end up on your needle seat . , it doesnt do anything to help for leaks ..

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: MO_PA] #2754504
03/22/20 12:07 PM
03/22/20 12:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
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Originally Posted by MO_PA
It needs to have the timing advanced. my 2cents


I agree...with the duration of that cam, the distributor needs to be reworked for about 16-18* initial and all timing in by 2200 RPM...makes a HUGE difference. Mine is a 496 with 6 pak and a Comp XTQ294 solid 264-270* duration. Idles fine in gear at 1000 rpm.

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: superwrench] #2755217
03/23/20 09:10 PM
03/23/20 09:10 PM
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Posts: 23
California
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Tomkcuda Offline OP
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I am still waiting for the replacement metering block to arrive. I guess with this coronavirus thing going on its causing havoc with shipping . It says 27th, I should receive.

Couple things i did try while waiting,
I put in a new set of jets on the center metering block. I had a spare 65 jets and drilled out to .075. I did not make much of dofference. I did notice and can here fuel leaking into the manifold when i turn off the engine which told me fuel float level was too high. Adjusted that and it seems to run bit better and didnt rabbit.

I also did advance timing 20°helped a little. it holds steady rpm while no load, however on a road test it cuts out when coming to a stop again.

Running out of options.

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: Tomkcuda] #2755218
03/23/20 09:14 PM
03/23/20 09:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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The OEM six pack center carbs that I have worked on seem to be real sensitive to the jets in them, try a set of stock Holley # 63 in yours like they came with twocents

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 03/23/20 09:14 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: Tomkcuda] #2755268
03/23/20 11:30 PM
03/23/20 11:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline
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Blair County,PA
I just dissembled a set of carbs today that had the gasket on the left as the center metering block gasket,owner told me it always was rich,leaking fuel and couldn't get idle below 1200 rpm. I've had more than one over the years that someone changed gaskets/rebuilt that had the 4160 4 bbl gasket instead of the correct 2300 gasket,easy mistake.

On another note,I finished my 4 spd bird in 1992,cam is old Direct Connection Street Hemi grind,280/474,end carbs have unmodified correct 34 and 35 metering plates and #.065 main jets,doesn't run rich,no black exhaust tips,about 17 mpg if you drive sensibly, runs like a clock, and hasn't been touched in 20 yrs.

images.jpg
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 62maxwgn] #2755272
03/23/20 11:41 PM
03/23/20 11:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23
California
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Tomkcuda Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
I just dissembled a set of carbs today that had the gasket on the left as the center metering block gasket,owner told me it always was rich,leaking fuel and couldn't get idle below 1200 rpm. I've had more than one over the years that someone changed gaskets/rebuilt that had the 4160 4 bbl gasket instead of the correct 2300 gasket,easy mistake.
I wish that was the case but I have the correct blue gasket.

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: Tomkcuda] #2755558
03/24/20 07:22 PM
03/24/20 07:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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4406bbl Offline
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Nebraska
Originally Posted by Tom Kim
I am still waiting for the replacement metering block to arrive. I guess with this coronavirus thing going on its causing havoc with shipping . It says 27th, I should receive.

Couple things i did try while waiting,
I put in a new set of jets on the center metering block. I had a spare 65 jets and drilled out to .075. I did not make much of dofference. I did notice and can here fuel leaking into the manifold when i turn off the engine which told me fuel float level was too high. Adjusted that and it seems to run bit better and didnt rabbit.

I also did advance timing 20°helped a little. it holds steady rpm while no load, however on a road test it cuts out when coming to a stop again.

Running out of options.



You ain't even close to being out of options, you have barely started. You will never need more than .065 main jet on a center carb, a bigger main jet has almost zero effect on the idle. Until you get it to idle with the center throttle blades closed, you will have problems. I hope the new metering plate has bigger idle restrictions, or it will make no difference. I explained earlier how to do this.

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: Tomkcuda] #2755586
03/24/20 08:49 PM
03/24/20 08:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 426
Mid-Atlantic
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Scatransit Offline
mopar
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Mid-Atlantic
From your description, sounds like a vacuum leak. Jets, metering blocks, power valves, mixture screws, etc etc, are all important, but none of those items will be "tuneable" if there is a vacuum leak. Easiest way to check is to put some water in a squirt bottle, and with the nozzle set to "stream", apply light amounts of water to the carb bases and intake gasket areas while engine is running. Any breach will result in sputtering showing you quickly and safely where the leak is. Avoid using carb cleaner, brake cleaner, or propane to avoid a fire hazard. Keep in mind that even if you rule out an external vacuum leak, it's still possible that there could be and internal leak in the carb(s). Don't worry a little water in the cylinder wont hurt anything...Good luck.


[oo]======[oo]
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 4406bbl] #2755588
03/24/20 08:52 PM
03/24/20 08:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Originally Posted by 4406bbl
Originally Posted by Tom Kim
I am still waiting for the replacement metering block to arrive. I guess with this coronavirus thing going on its causing havoc with shipping . It says 27th, I should receive.

Couple things i did try while waiting,
I put in a new set of jets on the center metering block. I had a spare 65 jets and drilled out to .075. I did not make much of dofference. I did notice and can here fuel leaking into the manifold when i turn off the engine which told me fuel float level was too high. Adjusted that and it seems to run bit better and didnt rabbit.

I also did advance timing 20°helped a little. it holds steady rpm while no load, however on a road test it cuts out when coming to a stop again.

Running out of options.



You ain't even close to being out of options, you have barely started. You will never need more than .065 main jet on a center carb, a bigger main jet has almost zero effect on the idle. Until you get it to idle with the center throttle blades closed, you will have problems. I hope the new metering plate has bigger idle restrictions, or it will make no difference. I explained earlier how to do this.




And one little note for reference,the only center car throttle blade with hole is the 225,used in the 69 1/2 carbs only,all others used the 222 blade,no hole..

P3241007.JPG
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 62maxwgn] #2755860
03/25/20 02:50 PM
03/25/20 02:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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4406bbl Offline
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Nebraska
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
Originally Posted by 4406bbl
Originally Posted by Tom Kim
I am still waiting for the replacement metering block to arrive. I guess with this coronavirus thing going on its causing havoc with shipping . It says 27th, I should receive.

Couple things i did try while waiting,
I put in a new set of jets on the center metering block. I had a spare 65 jets and drilled out to .075. I did not make much of dofference. I did notice and can here fuel leaking into the manifold when i turn off the engine which told me fuel float level was too high. Adjusted that and it seems to run bit better and didnt rabbit.

I also did advance timing 20°helped a little. it holds steady rpm while no load, however on a road test it cuts out when coming to a stop again.

Running out of options.



You ain't even close to being out of options, you have barely started. You will never need more than .065 main jet on a center carb, a bigger main jet has almost zero effect on the idle. Until you get it to idle with the center throttle blades closed, you will have problems. I hope the new metering plate has bigger idle restrictions, or it will make no difference. I explained earlier how to do this.




And one little note for reference,the only center car throttle blade with hole is the 225,used in the 69 1/2 carbs only,all others used the 222 blade,no hole..


Looked thru all my extra junk, you got me on the center throttle plates....almost ....2 of my 1970 sets have 225, 2 have 222s. All are 4375 list, It appears that if it had holes 225s it got a 6170 metering block, 222s 6020 metering block. All 4 sets have the same idle air bleed.068 same high speed bleeds.028, same pvcr .046. The only thing I see is that the no hole carbs have the curb idle screw turned in 2-3 turns more, blades are open more. Anyway, never looked at them all side by side, learn something new. I have no 69-1/2 carbs, what # rear throttle plate do they use, and what size hole is in them?

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 4406bbl] #2755983
03/25/20 06:35 PM
03/25/20 06:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline
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Blair County,PA
,All front and rear plates are either # 199 or # 226,big block,the # 199 is big block only and has a smaller hole than the # 226,small block is # 226. The # 199 plate was used as replacement due to supposedly sticking # 226 in early production but not sure of when the change was made,most all I get in have the #226 plate.I have all the original Chrysler engineering,installation,specifications and adjustment procedures from 1970,I'll go through it when I get a chance and possibly clear things up a bit. If you don't have and can find one of these Holey manuals buy it,you'll never need to second guess anything,it's all in there. up

.Below is metering block application and blades,no exceptions .


# 6170 69 1/2 A12 225 throttle blade
# 6020 70/71 440-6 222 throttle blade
# 6610 70 AAR/TA 222 throttle blade

Picture 397.jpg
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: Tomkcuda] #2756019
03/25/20 08:21 PM
03/25/20 08:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,153
Mass
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Mass
Originally Posted by Tom Kim
however on a road test it cuts out when coming to a stop again.




I'll assume it's a somewhat hard stop?, if so, my experience is this is usually high fuel level(s) as the fuel can run up/slosh up the vent tube and spill down the throat(s) either ragging out the idle and or stalling the motor, might try lowering the float levels just below the sight hole, try and see what happens, easy and no costs... if your running a stock 6 pack air cleaner, check the underside of the lid, clean it, take the car out, run it as you do causing it to stall, immediately check the underside of the lid for wet gas to possibly ID the carb(s) causing this

If that's the case? perhaps the vent baffle is missing inside the carb?

You might find you need vent tubes to prevent this condition? Holley has various lengths, or make your own out of tubing, or a larger Holley aftermarket vent tube baffle inside the bowl?

Just throwing it out there...

centercarb.JPGcentercarb3.JPGcentercarb2.JPG
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 62maxwgn] #2756032
03/25/20 08:51 PM
03/25/20 08:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 953
Badham Co.
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Badham Co.
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
I thought of something else you can check and reset if needed is the fuel, float level. Most Holley like and need the fuel to barely dribble out of the side hole when running at idle speed, if you look closely at your carbs you will notice that the outboard screws for checking the float level are higher than the center bowl is scope Don
t set them in the middle of that hole, that is to high tsk
Let us know how your doing on fixing this issue, six packs rock when you get them right wrench Which is not always easy whistling grin


Cab,you got it backwards,the center is higher than the ends,better check your scope ! no beer
That why it is good to use clear sight plugs in the outboards to set the float level when tuning. Take them out after tuning because they will turn to crap after being exposed to gas.

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 62maxwgn] #2756060
03/25/20 11:28 PM
03/25/20 11:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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Nebraska
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
,All front and rear plates are either # 199 or # 226,big block,the # 199 is big block only and has a smaller hole than the # 226,small block is # 226. The # 199 plate was used as replacement due to supposedly sticking # 226 in early production but not sure of when the change was made,most all I get in have the #226 plate.I have all the original Chrysler engineering,installation,specifications and adjustment procedures from 1970,I'll go through it when I get a chance and possibly clear things up a bit. If you don't have and can find one of these Holey manuals buy it,you'll never need to second guess anything,it's all in there. up

.Below is metering block application and blades,no exceptions .


# 6170 69 1/2 A12 225 throttle blade
# 6020 70/71 440-6 222 throttle blade
# 6610 70 AAR/TA 222 throttle blade



It looks like holley still sells the book. Are you telling me that it includes part numbers, or does it have the actual measured sizes for the restrictions like high speed bleeds, idle air bleeds, throttle plate holes, metering plate holes. I will buy it if all restrictions are listed. I can tell you for sure the 4375 I bought from direct connection in the 80s had 225 blades, and a 6020 metering block. We know as fact the current over the counter #34-35 metering plates have the wrong size restrictions. Holley did not always get everything right. As for the OP... we know he needs more gas at idle, as plugging the idle bleeds makes it quit dieing, I think he needs more idle air also to get the center blades closed, but I ain't standing there to see how far they are open, with that cam quite a bit I would bet.

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 4406bbl] #2756074
03/26/20 12:31 AM
03/26/20 12:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Blair County,PA
Originally Posted by 4406bbl
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
,All front and rear plates are either # 199 or # 226,big block,the # 199 is big block only and has a smaller hole than the # 226,small block is # 226. The # 199 plate was used as replacement due to supposedly sticking # 226 in early production but not sure of when the change was made,most all I get in have the #226 plate.I have all the original Chrysler engineering,installation,specifications and adjustment procedures from 1970,I'll go through it when I get a chance and possibly clear things up a bit. If you don't have and can find one of these Holey manuals buy it,you'll never need to second guess anything,it's all in there. up

.Below is metering block application and blades,no exceptions .


# 6170 69 1/2 A12 225 throttle blade
# 6020 70/71 440-6 222 throttle blade
# 6610 70 AAR/TA 222 throttle blade



It looks like holley still sells the book. Are you telling me that it includes part numbers, or does it have the actual measured sizes for the restrictions like high speed bleeds, idle air bleeds, throttle plate holes, metering plate holes. I will buy it if all restrictions are listed. I can tell you for sure the 4375 I bought from direct connection in the 80s had 225 blades, and a 6020 metering block. We know as fact the current over the counter #34-35 metering plates have the wrong size restrictions. Holley did not always get everything right. As for the OP... we know he
needs more gas at idle, as plugging the idle bleeds makes it quit dieing, I think he needs more idle air also to get the center blades closed, but I ain't standing there to see how far they are open, with that cam quite a bit I would bet.



The book contains illustration of carb,all related parts pictured and reference and part number for every piece.It does not contain the various air bleed and restriction measurement. The Chrysler engineering information that I mentioned above has that,when I get some free time in the next few days I'll see that you get it.

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 4406bbl] #2756144
03/26/20 11:00 AM
03/26/20 11:00 AM
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23
California
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Tomkcuda Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 4406bbl
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
Originally Posted by 4406bbl
Originally Posted by Tom Kim
I am still waiting for the replacement metering block to arrive. I guess with this coronavirus thing going on its causing havoc with shipping . It says 27th, I should receive.

Couple things i did try while waiting,
I put in a new set of jets on the center metering block. I had a spare 65 jets and drilled out to .075. I did not make much of dofference. I did notice and can here fuel leaking into the manifold when i turn off the engine which told me fuel float level was too high. Adjusted that and it seems to run bit better and didnt rabbit.

I also did advance timing 20°helped a little. it holds steady rpm while no load, however on a road test it cuts out when coming to a stop again.

Running out of options.



You ain't even close to being out of options, you have barely started. You will never need more than .065 main jet on a center carb, a bigger main jet has almost zero effect on the idle. Until you get it to idle with the center throttle blades closed, you will have problems. I hope the new metering plate has bigger idle restrictions, or it will make no difference. I explained earlier how to do this.




And one little note for reference,the only center car throttle blade with hole is the 225,used in the 69 1/2 carbs only,all others used the 222 blade,no hole..


Looked thru all my extra junk, you got me on the center throttle plates....almost ....2 of my 1970 sets have 225, 2 have 222s. All are 4375 list, It appears that if it had holes 225s it got a 6170 metering block, 222s 6020 metering block. All 4 sets have the same idle air bleed.068 same high speed bleeds.028, same pvcr .046. The only thing I see is that the no hole carbs have the curb idle screw turned in 2-3 turns more, blades are open more. Anyway, never looked at them all side by side, learn something new. I have no 69-1/2 carbs, what # rear throttle plate do they use, and what size hole is in them?

I think this is something I need to look further. I will pull it apart perhaps later this evening and post some pictures. If I can recall the outer carb throttle plates were 220 and did have holes. Cannot remember the center though.. I am wondering if this is the reason why I cannot tell if there is a vacuum leak. I did everything everyone suggested on how to test for a leak. Nothing worked and wondering if that is the reason. It is constantly drawing air through outer carbs or more air then it should.
I have ordered new sets throttle plates from Holley 1 3/4 size. They do not manufacture the originals anymore.
I should be receiving metering block today. Lastly, I ordered a new base plate from promax with idle screw positioned off to the side. Cost of parts keep adding up..

Last edited by Tom Kim; 03/26/20 02:43 PM.
Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 62maxwgn] #2756156
03/26/20 11:34 AM
03/26/20 11:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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4406bbl Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
Originally Posted by 4406bbl
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
,All front and rear plates are either # 199 or # 226,big block,the # 199 is big block only and has a smaller hole than the # 226,small block is # 226. The # 199 plate was used as replacement due to supposedly sticking # 226 in early production but not sure of when the change was made,most all I get in have the #226 plate.I have all the original Chrysler engineering,installation,specifications and adjustment procedures from 1970,I'll go through it when I get a chance and possibly clear things up a bit. If you don't have and can find one of these Holey manuals buy it,you'll never need to second guess anything,it's all in there. up

.Below is metering block application and blades,no exceptions .


# 6170 69 1/2 A12 225 throttle blade
# 6020 70/71 440-6 222 throttle blade
# 6610 70 AAR/TA 222 throttle blade



It looks like holley still sells the book. Are you telling me that it includes part numbers, or does it have the actual measured sizes for the restrictions like high speed bleeds, idle air bleeds, throttle plate holes, metering plate holes. I will buy it if all restrictions are listed. I can tell you for sure the 4375 I bought from direct connection in the 80s had 225 blades, and a 6020 metering block. We know as fact the current over the counter #34-35 metering plates have the wrong size restrictions. Holley did not always get everything right. As for the OP... we know he
needs more gas at idle, as plugging the idle bleeds makes it quit dieing, I think he needs more idle air also to get the center blades closed, but I ain't standing there to see how far they are open, with that cam quite a bit I would bet.



The book contains illustration of carb,all related parts pictured and reference and part number for every piece.It does not contain the various air bleed and restriction measurement. The Chrysler engineering information that I mentioned above has that,when I get some free time in the next few days I'll see that you get it.


That would be great, thank you. Kind of wonder if that is why some setups run perfect, others not so much, wrong pieces to start with.

Re: 440 six pack idle help [Re: 4406bbl] #2756172
03/26/20 12:37 PM
03/26/20 12:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline
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Blair County,PA
Originally Posted by 4406bbl
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
Originally Posted by 4406bbl
Originally Posted by 62maxwgn
,All front and rear plates are either # 199 or # 226,big block,the # 199 is big block only and has a smaller hole than the # 226,small block is # 226. The # 199 plate was used as replacement due to supposedly sticking # 226 in early production but not sure of when the change was made,most all I get in have the #226 plate.I have all the original Chrysler engineering,installation,specifications and adjustment procedures from 1970,I'll go through it when I get a chance and possibly clear things up a bit. If you don't have and can find one of these Holey manuals buy it,you'll never need to second guess anything,it's all in there. up

.Below is metering block application and blades,no exceptions .


# 6170 69 1/2 A12 225 throttle blade
# 6020 70/71 440-6 222 throttle blade
# 6610 70 AAR/TA 222 throttle blade



It looks like holley still sells the book. Are you telling me that it includes part numbers, or does it have the actual measured sizes for the restrictions like high speed bleeds, idle air bleeds, throttle plate holes, metering plate holes. I will buy it if all restrictions are listed. I can tell you for sure the 4375 I bought from direct connection in the 80s had 225 blades, and a 6020 metering block. We know as fact the current over the counter #34-35 metering plates have the wrong size restrictions. Holley did not always get everything right. As for the OP... we know he
needs more gas at idle, as plugging the idle bleeds makes it quit dieing, I think he needs more idle air also to get the center blades closed, but I ain't standing there to see how far they are open, with that cam quite a bit I would bet.



The book contains illustration of carb,all related parts pictured and reference and part number for every piece.It does not contain the various air bleed and restriction measurement. The Chrysler engineering information that I mentioned above has that,when I get some free time in the
next few days I'll see that you get it.


That would be great, thank you. Kind of wonder if that is why some setups run perfect, others not so much, wrong pieces to start with.



Like I mentioned above,finished this in 92,took them off and had them refinished 2003,put them back on with same adjustments when the came off,never had to do anything,still runs same as it did in 92.

Picture 273.jpg
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