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Excessive toe-in??? #2753129
03/18/20 01:01 PM
03/18/20 01:01 PM
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PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline OP
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Specifically on A body front suspension. I have noticed that as the suspension rises on the front of these A body cars, they seem to get a lot of toe in...very noticeable. Am I missing something here as to the geometry of the control arms themselves?? Or is it just my unfortunate luck to have experienced this on a few cars?? The car in question right now is a 1974 Duster/disc brake car. when the suspension is left to hang freely, I am noticing terrible toe in...like probably 1 1/2". Help...

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: superwrench] #2753131
03/18/20 01:13 PM
03/18/20 01:13 PM
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Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
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with the center link being mounted solidly at the idler arm and pitman arm the tie rods will pull the wheels to the center as the spindles drop away from them. I hope that makes sense.

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: superwrench] #2753142
03/18/20 01:48 PM
03/18/20 01:48 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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That can be fixed by reshaping the tie rods, one of the Mopar drag race chassis manuals covered that scope
I remember hearing one of the more serious NHRA Mopar stock racers saying he had got his car set up so it had a max of 1/8 inch toe change from max front end low to wheels off the ground shruggy
I've never tried doing that though.


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: stumpy] #2753145
03/18/20 01:50 PM
03/18/20 01:50 PM
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So Near, Yet So Far
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An inch and a half ?!
I can't imagine that's right, and I don't think I've ever seen anything like that amount.

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: topside] #2753171
03/18/20 03:17 PM
03/18/20 03:17 PM
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Western Md.
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The terminology for what your experiencing is bump steer...

Its basically the movement of a spindle (tow-in to tow-out) from full jounce to full extension...

The individual ride height of any given car will affect this.

One part of this is the tie rod attachment at the spindle is often in too low or too high of a relation to the idler and pittman arms.

I have lowered the idler and pittman arms in the past to lessen the bump steer...

FWIW this was on a dirt car which may have had a higher than normal ride height...

You can purchase a bump steer gauge at Speedway but all adjustments pretty much require all aftermarket steering components...

We used 5/8" diameter spacers of different thicknesses under a hiem joint that replaced a factory tie rod end...

Typically you need to have the spindles drilled out to 5/8" to utilize this design...

The 2nd aspect is the attachment point of the inner tie rod...not only vertical but also left to right...

I know with a GM they also weld new "lugs" onto an existing drag link to relocate the inner tie rod ends...

Using the gauge and modify-relocating the steering pivot points will allow for near zero bump steer but it will take a lot of work to get it that precise...

Then you get to do it to the other side as well...


...FAFO...
Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: skicker] #2753177
03/18/20 03:43 PM
03/18/20 03:43 PM
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Park Forest, IL
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Watch video of a stock suspension Mopar come down from a wheelstand. It's a trainwreck. Older Ford is worse.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: slantzilla] #2753237
03/18/20 07:06 PM
03/18/20 07:06 PM
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Pattison Texas
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The old DC race manual, shows what to do, you bend the arm on the lower Ball joint up or down to get the bumpsteer better, I bent mine down 1 inch & it is MUCH better now.


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Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: topside] #2753245
03/18/20 07:21 PM
03/18/20 07:21 PM
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PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline OP
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Actually 1 9/32" to be precise. I have always had E and B Bodies and have noticed a slight deflection but never anything like these A Bodies. Just wondering where a good point on the travel would be to set the toe when racing...2" rise maybe and set it to 0 ???

Last edited by superwrench; 03/18/20 07:25 PM.
Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: superwrench] #2753253
03/18/20 07:37 PM
03/18/20 07:37 PM
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Michigan
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Transman Online content
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The shop behind the old “Woodward Garage” run by two suspension guys from Chrysler Engineering used to set the toe with the driver’s weight in the front seat and with the car 1” up from normal ride height.

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: Transman] #2753379
03/19/20 08:26 AM
03/19/20 08:26 AM
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Western Md.
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The static ride height will also play a part...the lower the car is the worse the problem gets when the front end is extended...

The higher the ride height the less noticeable it is... twocents


...FAFO...
Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: Transman] #2753381
03/19/20 08:46 AM
03/19/20 08:46 AM
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Michigan
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Originally Posted by Transman
The shop behind the old “Woodward Garage” run by two suspension guys from Chrysler Engineering used to set the toe with the driver’s weight in the front seat and with the car 1” up from normal ride height.


And heating and bending cams from his shop as well.
First time I ever saw it done was in early 1967 on our SS car.

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: Transman] #2753396
03/19/20 09:51 AM
03/19/20 09:51 AM
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Tulsa, Oklahoma
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A tie rod kit is available from Hotchkis that helped my car. However, to to totally fix it required the heating and bending of the arm off the lower ball joint that connects to the tie rod.

Fortunately there is a local alignment shop that could do this for me.

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: Transman] #2753431
03/19/20 12:06 PM
03/19/20 12:06 PM
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Pikes Peak Country
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...or instead of heating and bending, you could try something like this:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...Z0dSm6AIVQP7jBx0jwgbBEAQYAiABEgIupvD_BwE

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: TC@HP2] #2753482
03/19/20 02:33 PM
03/19/20 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TC@HP2
...or instead of heating and bending, you could try something like this:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...Z0dSm6AIVQP7jBx0jwgbBEAQYAiABEgIupvD_BwE


How does that help - ?

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: superwrench] #2753587
03/19/20 06:32 PM
03/19/20 06:32 PM
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indy
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on my 68 dart race car the bump steer was horrible, every bit of inch and a half. on my previous car , a 75 duster I did the bending of the outer tie rod end, it helped a lot. on the dart I was able to buy adjustable upper control arms. bobs pro fab for the win! once I had 4 degrees of caster the bump steer was almost no existant. now 4 degrees of caster is probably too much for a street car, especially with man steering. on a race car works great.

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: eds dart] #2753618
03/19/20 08:02 PM
03/19/20 08:02 PM
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West Plains, MO
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Originally Posted by eds dart
now 4 degrees of caster is probably too much for a street car, especially with man steering. on a race car works great.


My '72 Dart big-block has tubular UCAs, 3.5 caster and a 16:1 manual box. Handles as well on the street as a B engine A body can wink
Steering is somewhat heavy but only really noticeable if the car is not moving shruggy

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: DrCharles] #2753797
03/20/20 12:14 PM
03/20/20 12:14 PM
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PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DrCharles
Originally Posted by eds dart
now 4 degrees of caster is probably too much for a street car, especially with man steering. on a race car works great.


My '72 Dart big-block has tubular UCAs, 3.5 caster and a 16:1 manual box. Handles as well on the street as a B engine A body can wink
Steering is somewhat heavy but only really noticeable if the car is not moving shruggy


What brand??/ I see Hotchkiss has some...pricey though...

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: superwrench] #2753812
03/20/20 12:59 PM
03/20/20 12:59 PM
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West Plains, MO
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I am not sure... they are a u-shaped loop with a Heim joint on each end. No brand name I can see. (Came with the rolling chassis when I bought it years ago).
Don't look like QA1, PST or the other common ones shruggy

Anyway, don't be afraid of a little caster wink

Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: DrCharles] #2754104
03/21/20 10:23 AM
03/21/20 10:23 AM
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MI, usa
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Read here;
http://www.longacreracing.com/technical-articles.aspx?item=8162

Moving the tie rods down is easy. You can add caster. Or the outer tie rods can be replaced with heim joints and use a spacer. If the outer tie rod is to low reducing Caster will bring them up. Anything else is more than likely going to require bending the outer tie rod attachment point. So with our type of suspension that means bending the steering arm section of the lower ball joint. The other item I see on A bodys is that many times the front suspension is raised quite a bit. The arc of the upper control arms now pulls the upper ball joint in during rebound (extension) causing extreme negative camber. Camber affects toe. A taller spindle would help in this situation (FMJ body). Also mentioned earlier was the in/out oscillation of the wheels coming down from a wheel stand. This is NOT a Mopar only issue. Many have theories as to the cause. Here's mine: As the suspension rises the track narrows. The natural arc of the control arms makes this inevitable. The track width is now narrower. When the tires come back into contact with the ground they push and scrub outward to return to the natural track width. During this process the bushings are compressed, steering linkage flexed ( especially the idler arm pivot up/down), frame rail and control arm flex also. This causes the toe to oscillate positive/negative. The best cure I've used is to add compression to the front shocks. This allows the front suspension to settle slowly. This in itself is a benefit of not unloading the rear tires. You can get them right with some work. Mine stays straight as an arrow
Doug

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Re: Excessive toe-in??? [Re: Transman] #2754133
03/21/20 11:46 AM
03/21/20 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Transman
Originally Posted by TC@HP2
...or instead of heating and bending, you could try something like this:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...Z0dSm6AIVQP7jBx0jwgbBEAQYAiABEgIupvD_BwE


How does that help - ?


Toe changes are primarily caused by four conditions; outer tie rod too low or too high and tie rod length too long or too short. Items like this, and others attached to the link, allow the tie rod ends to be relocated up or down, provided you get the correct style of spacer to mate with the steering arm and tie rod taper. If you have rod end tie rods, this adjustment is even easier with a thru-bolt arrangement. This relocation accomplishes the same thing as heating and bending the steering arm to relocate the outer tie rod pivot point.

Of course for some its easier to simply fire of the hot wrench and tweak a steering arm than it is to sort through a variety of spacers and tapers. If you don't have access to an oxy/acetelyne set up to heat up an arm, spacers are an option.













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