Hey all - I'm new here. Been a fringe player forever, but have finally landed a mopar machine, and am trying to bring the 'ol gal to life....

Long story short, I've stepped RIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE of a hot mess project. This thing is so crazy cool - but not one thing is finished. I'm in WAY over my head....and really need some help if I'm going to see this one back to the pavement.

1934 Plymouth sedan, with loads of cool stuff already started. Z'd fram front and back, chopped and channeled body, IFS front end, four-wheel disc brakes, air bags at every corner, and a big block 440 with a 727 torqueflite tranny feeding a four-link rear end. Yeah - super cool stuff going on here.

Problem is - NONE of it is finished. Nothing. Body isn't finished, fuel system needs plumbed, brakes need wrapped up, cooling system is missing pieces, steering isn't hooked up - so yeah, she's going to keep me busy.

I'm starting with a carb question....

She's currently outfitted with what I believe to be a '76 440cid with a cast crank. Bone stock other than the headers and Offenhauser tunnel ram intake. There are no carbs, however.....and that's my first question. Which carb setup would you recommend? Something on the small side, because there will be two of them. Maybe a 450cfm carb X 2? The Quick Fuel Slayer or something?

I've never owned anything this radical, so I have no idea about how to set these things. Honestly, I've given thought to yanking the tunnel ram in favor of a simpler 4-bbl manifold, at least just to get it running and moving. Haven't ruled that out yet either, but I don't want to have to buy a new intake and a 750 cfm carb, only to find she runs fine then turn around and need a pair of 450cfm carbs to put the big radical tunnel ram back in place. Does any of that make sense?

What would you all do?

I'll post a few pics, to show up what I'm up against......and I'm being serious about needing all the help I can get. This thing is more than I've EVER tackled before...and I'm nervous!

Pics coming up....

Here are a few more pics of the engine....

can't help on the carb issue, but that looks like a COOL!! project

Hey 6 - thanks for the nice words. Hopefully it won't live here unfinished for way too long, only to be shuffled down the road to another guy's place - all because I'm unqualified to move it to the next step...fingers crossed!

Before you get too carried away with the tunnel ram set up have you found carb linkage etc. to make this thing work? With a stock build I think I would go with a single 4bbl. The tunnel ran and 2 carbs maybe way to much for a stock engine unless you use very small carbs. But tunnel ram 2 and 4s does look cool on an old rod..

Right on - I totally hear you...

Without doing ANYTHING else to the engine - NOTHING - I think I'm going to swap to a high-rise dual-plane single-4bbl intake. I think it will make my life TONS smoother, not having to mess with linkages, carb settings, etc....at least right out of the gates. Someday, maybe - but for now there are plenty of other things that need to be addressed. Like steering, for example. Be really nice to be able to steer this beast! At some point in the future, perhaps I'll yank the single 4bbl, toss in a cam and church the heads a bit, then come back to the tunnel ram. Just for simplicity's sake at this point.

According to my calculations (thank you Google!) my carb needs to be in the neighborhood of a 650cfm - does that sound right to you?

(440cid X 6000 RPM redline X 85% efficiency as a street/driver vehicle) / 3456 = 650 CFM.

Does that sound reasonable? For a stock 440 with nothing other than an intake and some headers?

I'm looking at this carb, because it gets great reviews, has vacuum secondaries, and isn't stupid expensive:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08750vs/reviews

Anybody have any experience with this guy? What do you know about it? Would you have me start elsewhere?

And what about intake manifolds? I have access to a new(er) Offenhauser dual-plane high rise...so I thought I'd start there. Think that's too much for a bone-stock 440?


I'm all ears.....

BB Mopar with stock heads love all the air and fuel you can give to them at WOT Been there done that a lot at the track and one the streets terrorizing the other brands
On your deal I would buy those carbs and the mechanical linkage kit for the tunnel ram that hooks up both carbs in line, not sideways, to work as one, no progressive linkage on tunnel rams Be prepared for a lot of tire spin once you get to driving that rascal Be safe mainly
People, even on here, tend to forget that the right foot control how much air and fuel the carbs allow into the motor, correct
I have a couple of old tunnel ram intakes and carbs, one set of Holley List 3 1850 vacuum secondary, one set of Holley 1000 CFM double pumper with annular boosters(I'm going to have them changed to standard boosters some day ) and one set of Holley List #9375 non HP 1050 CFM Dominator that where designed for tunnel rams. I've raced and won with Mopars cars since 1964 at the tracks, every Mopar V8 motor I've played with at the races liked more air and fuel to go faster

Great for racing but not so good for a streetable driver like he is putting together.

Have you ever driven one on the street tuned up properly for street driving?
If not maybe you should

The smallest Holley 4 barrels you can find - with vacuum secondaries. I may be mistaken but I thought they made 350 cfms. They definitely make 450's.

Since its a rod you could also consider a couple carb adapters and put two 2-barrels on there. Holleys OR a couple Strombergs !! Even two single Strombergs.

welcome here, and i REALLY like your project !

Thanks for all the kind words; I can't take credit for any part of this project as of yet. All I've done is back it off of the trailer right into the garage!

As far as carbs are concerned....one gentleman suggested that I buy the 600 CFM version of the summit carb, then later if I'm feeling frisky, I could purchase another 600CFM Summit carb and mount both on the tunnel ram.

Would that be too much carb? The pair of 600CFM carbs? Would a single 600 CFM be enough carb to run by itself? I seem to be in a catch-22 here.....one carb is too small, two would be too big.

Just trying to make my dollar go as far as possible. I don't want to buy a 750 cfm, then in six months or a year be shopping for a pair of smaller carbs. Guess I'm a tightwad and don't like buying more than I need.

Perhaps I'll stick with the 750 for now....just keep things simple.

Think the high-rise dual-plane manifold is a good place to start? I can get a hold of that one relatively quickly and it's affordable.

If you aren't ready to spend big bucks then the single 4bbl would be a good place to start and you could always sell it later to get the tunnel ram up and going. The kiss principal is always the best way to go on a project as big as yours.

If it's a stone stock cast crank 440 and this is just a bucks down exercise to make it self propelled, get a stock iron intake and bolt on whatever 4 barrel carb you have in stock. That will get it making vroom vroom noises for little to no money and the stock intake is more than capable of feeding those heads with a stock cam.

Then you can shop around for a pair of carburetors and linkage for the tunnel ram. Lots of deals to be had on 500 or 600 cfm Edelbrocks and there is no such thing as too much carburetor.

Kevin

If it was me I would do it once, buy the two carbs you like and start off with them to begin with, screw changing it later
That car will be fairly light weight and scoot with any 440 motor in it that is halfway decent, go for the bling on the first impressions now

Yes 2 small 4bbl carbs are the ticket.Keep in mind for example the dual quad set up package from Edelbrock for the Ford 289/302 recommends 2 500cfm carbs. Personally I would run 2 Edelbrock 500s. I have run them on low rise dual plane 440s and the same carbs on an M1 tunnel rammed 440. They work. I have zero experience with the small Holleys but plenty of testimonials that they work as well.

500 cfm Carterbrocks These are the ones that Edlebrock sells for dual quad applications so the the jets and metering rods are sized correctly. That looks like a badass project

Well crap.

Now you guys have me second-guessing my decision to just toss on a 4bbl and yank the tunnel ram.

The 500cfm carbs aren't cheap, but seem to get some killer reviews. I'm an Edelbrock fan, and have had nothing but smooth sailing with them - but I've only used them on small block applications, and never with anything as monstrous as a tunnel rammed big block.

They're roughly $800 for the pair - not including linkages. They'd be expensive - but if I didn't have to buy another 4bbl intake and carb, would prob be a wash. Does that make sense?

Of course, if I buy the two carbs and CAN'T get the tunnel ram to work, now I'm in REALLY deep. Haha. Tough to make a good decision.

I'd prob be better off to do what I know, which is a single 4bbl. Pull the tunnel ram, swap into a new Summit 4bbl, and move on - at least for the time being.

tunnel rams are pretty street friendly if set up correctly.
but as is almost always the case, you need to be able to tune.
thermoquads used to be despised by me until i actually took the time to tinker with them to make them work.
no more effort than you tinkering with the tunnel ram.
my opinion is to leave it there, acquire a couple of carbs, and go to town.

The tunnel ram intakes are not hard to tune carbs on
Buy the other carb like you have and the linkage needed to run them one to one and set the idle mixture and idle speed with the motor warm up and go drive it You'll love it once you drive it, there is no magic to tuning carbs, one, two or three
Actually the tunnel ram carbs mounted in line are way easier to tune than with them mounted sideways like most Holley D.P carbs have to be mounted on the tunnel ram intakes
As far as all those advocating small carbs on a tunnel ram intake are not some one who has taken the time to tune the bigger carbs for a tunnel ram, if you want tire smoking power put the bigger ones on now
Having two carbs let the motor breath easier and makes the fuel distribution better, especially at WOT
Four cylinders breathing through a four barrel carb

Not every one is looking for tire smoking performance. Some just want a street friendly set up. Dual carb set up on a stock motor is a hit and miss proposition. I don't think he is looking for tire smoking performance. I think he is looking for a good smooth street drivable combo and you are trying to lock him into a go fast race setup.

I'm sure he wants all the best first impression impact he can get, maybe along with decent performance to start with.
As I already pointed out the drivers right foot determines how the car is driven, build it mild and drive it mild will always give the driver they want, unless they want more later
The driver doesn't have to stand on the throttle every time he drives it, correct
If the combination is built to make 250 HP with one four barrel at 5000 RPM and can be made to have 280 HP with two four barrels at 5000 RPM but both make 170 HP at 2300 RPM under light throttle driving which combination would you choose
I do know people who got to much power, not many, but some
Most of the hot rodders I know want more power than they have, not less
If your the type that wants to bolt on parts and get good results to start with and not having to work on it to get the best performance don't choose a challenge when selecting your parts
I like working on my cars and learning how to make them better and faster than the other guys around me
Did I say I like power, lots of power

Do whats in your level of skill, comfort and $$. Dont rule out remanned carbs that have been remanned by the original manufacturer. Just dont buy go to ebay and buy on price alone. Some of those sellers are criminally selling crap. A remanned carb from Summit -Jegs etc is a safe buy. Used is fine IF YOU KNOW FOR SURE THE CARB HAS NO ISSUES- such as from a friend or trusted source.

I am most definitely looking for a street friendly setup. I think the stock engine will be enough to smoke any tire I put on this rig; it's super light, and with these skinny tires - it won't take much to break 'em loose.

That being said, I love the tall in-your-face look that the tunnel ram gives the car. The two tall velocity stacks right up front are killer, and I think they fit the car well. If they'll behave well enough to be a streetable option, then for sure that's what I'd prefer. They look so good on this open-engine machine.

I've never been a master carb-tuner....but I'm not terrified of the job either. I've tuned carbs on many other applications, from motorbikes to ATVs to cars....just never from scratch, and never a pair of 4bbl carbs. I imagine I can get it done, however. I'm persistent - so as long as you all think it will work (and the stock engine/cam/heads/etc can take it), then I'll order the carbs and linkage and we'll get this party started! Well, HOPEFULLY we'll get it started - haha! You know what I mean....

Ive run more than a few 2x4. Get a pair of matched Carter or Edelbrocks. Used ones are cheap. Size really isnt going to be an issue. 500, 600, 750,. You're looking to drive it , right? Stock cam is small enough it won't t matter. The idle will be fine. 2 carbs gives you 2 accelerator pumps and plenty of idle fuel. Itll go right down the road with the stock calibration. Will it be fast? Probably pretty decent since the car will probably be very light. If this is and small runner tunnel ram even better. The correct cam would make it even better.
Doug

I've read that using two carbs that line up with one another will be much easier to install and tune - is that your experience as well? Will the Summit or Edelbrock carbs line up? I thought it was the Holley carbs that mounted sideways...and that's what I'm trying to avoid, just to make it one step simpler to install.

The 4150 Holley carbs with no rear metering blocks with screw in jets like the double pumper use won't work in line, the single inlet vacuum secondary carbs like the list # 1849 and 1850 will fit in line They don't have the thick rear metering block, they use the thin rear metering plates so the rear float bowls don't stick out as far as the other carbs do with the thicker metering blocks
I've use them on several motors including other than Mopars, don't tell on me though
Running the carbs mounted in line with no progressive linkage makes those motor really responsive and that helps make more power

The AFB/Carter can be installed easily. Some of the Holleys are longer. Their fit depends on the carb center to center mounting distance. I've run cross rams as well. They all have worked pretty well right out of the box with Eddys or Carters.
Doug

If you are going to stay with the tunnel ram, you need to either turn the carbs sideways and run a couple of Holley knock off 650 double pumper carbs. A tunnel ram and small carbs are just worthless. The math is wrong on carb sizing. So don't bother with that.

You need a carb that is easily tuned. That's why the Pro Form 650 is a good buy. You can change everything by simply changing some brass.

If you don't want to turn the carbs sideways, then a couple of Carter/Edelbrock 600's will work.

If you are not willing to learn to tune a carb and do the work, skip the tunnel ram.

Also, no one asked what you have for a cam. Tunnel ram stuff is uber sensitive to cam timing. Most guys over cam the hell out of them, and then complain they have no bottom end. If you don't know what the cam is, or the cam wasn't chosen with the tunnel ram in mind, you either need to chant cams or lose the tunnel ram.

So this engine is bone-stock. Stock cam, stock heads - all OEM stuff from a 1976 Dodge motorhome. Nothing special at all, other than the aftermarket headers and tunnel ram intake. No other changes at all.

Those Pro Form cabs look nice, but are pricey. I'm seeing $400-$600 each, and I need two. That's not what I'm looking for. The Summit carb that I referred to earlier is more affordable, and gets killer reviews....but a brand new pair of Edelbrocks won't be much more, and they're bulletproof as far as I'm concerned. I've had great luck with them in the past.

I do have a Offy high-rise for a single 4bbl that I can use, so that's an option for me. I'd love to have the tunnel ram setup come together, but a non-functioning tunnel ram isn't worth much, is it?!

dvw thought a pair Carter or E-brocks would work well, so that's where I'll think I'll start. Here's where I can use some additional input:

I thought I'd grab a pair of Edelbrock 650 carbs. That's (2) 650 CFM carbs, both matching. They'll be mounted inline. I was thinking electric choke, vacuum secondaries for both. I'll look for the most affordable option - satin finish, reman, none of that matters at this point. Just a pair of solid carbs. I like the 650cfm, because in the event the tunnel ram is a complete fail, I can likely use just one on the high-righ intake and at least get something going - would you agree? Does Edelbrock make a 650cfm, electric choke, vac secondaries? That seems like the perfect fit for me, with the auto tranny and all.

Does that sound reasonable?

I'll get them ordered today. Enough "paralysis by analysis" - let's stop chatting and get in motion already! I've been chewing on this for days - and it's time to get moving!

And as always - THANK YOU AGAIN for all the help and input. This is far from the last time I'll need your input!

Suddenly with the whole getting a little extra downtime, I've got some time to do some work on the project!

Woot woot! Silver lining!

Does AVS (air valve secondaries) mean the same thing as vacuum secondaries?

This is what I'm after with the automatic tranny, correct?

Carter 4 barrel carbs have had a vacuum operated door, most of them did but not on all of the AFB, on the secondary for along, long time Some of the WCFB had them and most AFB had them, all the AVS and Thermoquad carbs have them , The rear throttle shaft with the butterfly, throttle plates, are mechanical operated off the gas pedal, not vacuum, but the doors above the venture or fuel shafts are vacuum opened
Holley vacuum secondary throttle shafts are opened by a vacuum pod, not the throttle linkage like Carter did. On the Holley vacuum secondary carbs the throttle linkage does close them also along with the primary throttle shafts

Uhhhh - wow. You know your carbs! Shazaam! You've FORGOTTEN more about carbs than I'll ever know!

So, uh, does the AVS act as vacuum secondaries then? I think that's what I'm interpreting - correct? From what I'm learning, that's what I'm after, with the auto tranny.

I'll also post up a photo of the intake runners on this tunnel ram; they're rather large. I'm guessing that if there are two sizes of intake runners, then I'm guessing that these are the larger of the two. They look bigger to me - but I don't have a ton of experience with tunnel rams. (Read that as NO experience with tunnel rams!)

Here are a few shots of the intake runners...

As long as the intake ports at the heads are the same size or smaller than the head ports your good
I would mark the lower half that is bigger than the top and take the top off so you could grind those ports to be the same size or bigger than the top
You don't want any lips sticking out into the air flow, it causes reversion and reversion causes air flow standoff and turbulence and disturbs the air flow
BTW, some of those intake had the bottom cast big enough so you could grind some of the excess material out of the bottom ports at the heads so you could make them work on Max Wedge port heads Does yours

You're amazing, cab. Seriously. You know your stuff!

I'm not sure what I've got as far as the intake is concerned. Should I take it off and see what's going on down there? Where it meets the heads?

Are you talking about grinding the tops of the intake runners so that they're smooth? Where it looks almost like a casting line at the tops of the runners? I can yank the top off of this manifold and see what's going on in there. Should there be a gasket between the upper and lower portion, you think?

BTW - I had a great conversation with the tech guys at Edelbrock this morning. They suggested what you all have been suggesting, but specified that I run a manual choke to avoid starting issues. That was something I needed help with, so that's good news. They suggested the #1905, a 650 CFM AVS carb (a pair of them, actually) and thought they would work well even with the stock cam and heads.

And while I'm in there - am I a fool for not swapping cams? Should I just yank the OEM bumpstick and swap it out?

It's not like it's a huge effort to get at it in this thing. It's all just hanging out there, wide open. Yank the radiator and she's ready. Haha.

Can you degree the new cam? If so you should change it to one you like , especially for the rumpity rump sound, or wait until you can drive it some and then change it to learn how much the cam you choose and degree increases the power on that motor I would probably do that
My first half fast hot rod was a 1933 Ford P.U that was chopped an channeled with a stock 1955 Chrysler New Yorker 331 C.I. Firepower 250 HP Hemi with the stock early Ford enclosed drive train, it was a blast to drive and tear up Which I did several times after starting to hop it up by adding dual quads on a stock inline factory 300 cast iron stock intake with two mismatched AFB carbs
If you don't change parts how are you going to learn which is good and which is bad, just like with women, HUH I had my Father in Law weld up a set of tube headers and collectors also later, which helped wake that stock little rascal up That truck weighed right at 2800 Lbs. with out me in it with half tank of gas. Light weight is right, big HP is good also

I've never done it before, but I'm a quick study.

I'm going to just leave the cam for now.

Carbs are ordered, and with any luck - they'll be here in a few days. The next issue will be the carb linkage; I've got to get them installed to determine just which linkage I'll need. One step at a time.

Also ordered the fuel tank sealant kit. This thing has a super cool old metal tank that has been set up to be used as a fuel tank, but it's going to need sealed. That's on the "fuel system check list".

I ran a pair of 750 Eddys on my 383 though an M1 tunnel ram. It was as easy to drive on the street as it was fun to drive at the track.

I just bought two new Eddys, and set them both for typical first start, then adjusted my idle and began tuning. I used a pair of vacuum gauges hooked to the carbs, and fine tuned them and idle to get both at a matched vacuum reading. Then after speaking with Eddy Tech line about a huge hesitation off the line they recommended dividing my vacuum reading in half, then installing step up springs for the divided number. In my case my max vacuum reading was 14 inches, so i installed 7 inch steep up springs.

That cured any hint of hesitation, and made the car an absolute animal, with instant go fast anytime I wanted.

As for linkage, I just used an inline non-progessive setup that is readily available through Speedway Motors, and it even allowed the use of the factory throttle cable bracket.

I like your car! It takes me back the the 1980s- a time where we had fun with our fast cars done on a budget. No care for originality and numbers matching. Cars like yours beat up on the rich kids whos dad bought them a brand new Trans Am- smoking the kid with the all show no go 1978 Z-28. Even whoop on that old guy driving his new silver corvette. (Thats how I remember the 80s during my life)

The mid 70's fury were pretty cool. I always thought the kinda had that e body look, with the long hood and short deck lid.

Sounds like fun, what cam did you have?

Hey - right on!

Thanks for the help on the linkage; that's the next piece of the puzzle.....

after reading thru this and with experience with driving dual quads my suggestion would be a pair 1405 edelbrocks. a pair of 1905's would be nice too. either way which ever is the most economical. I drive with two edelbrock 600's.

The tech guys at Edelbrock suggested either one of those carbs; they did say the newer 1905 might be the better choice, just because of the newer fuel atomizers....but otherwise they suggested the same carbs.

Nice call!

i'd like to try a pair of 650avs2's or 750's. the 650's I think would be a great choice, but what I have works so well and I don't want to pop for $700 to buy'em right now. swap meet 1405's can be had cheap but you have to make sure some moron hasn't bubberized them.

Way back many moons ago when I was N/A I had a pair of 750 holly carbs with the small bowls inline,the Mr Gasket linkage was a snap and the 6 cyl cable is the longest. With that Rat you MUST have multi carbs and the Eddies are the path of least resistance. I don't think you sound like a guy that could do 6 strombergs
I drive to many car shows and cars like yours are getting much attention!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH1GhZBVznQ

Question for those recommending that the carbs open 1 to 1

Have you ran a dual quad setup both ways - 1 to 1 and progressive?

Personally, my car was MUCH easier to drive around town with progressive linkage. I had them 1 to 1 for over 10 years before switching. I'd never go back 1 to 1 for a street car. In anything outside of a competition setting I cant see an advantage with 1 to 1

If you had a regular inline dual quad,, not a tunnel ram intake, your comparing Apples to Lemons
Which brand intake and type, single plane or dual plane, intake where you using?

Offenhauser in-line dual holley 1850s (intake part number 5206 I think) Single plane with a divider between the left and right cylinders.

Just curious and looking for an education. I plan on running a tunnel ram in the future. Bought the offy in 1997 and it runs great. I'm sure it's an outdated design but I have it for the look more than anything.

Carb secondaries have aftermarket plates that allow standard jets instead of drilling or replacing the metering plates

So I guess my question is when you ran a tunnel ram with progressive linkage what was the drawback?

Really bad fuel distribution at low throttle opening starving the front four cylinders bad enough to cause detonation
I cut my teeth on a early cast iron in line dual quad intake off of a 1955 Chrysler 300 motor, Mopar, Dodge, Plymouth, DeSoto and Chrysler used that type intake on almost all the OEM dual quad inline intake set ups they sold stock on production cars. They where not real responsive at low speed light throttle driving also
I had a 1957 Chrysler 300C that I took the dual quad set up off and installed a factory single four dual plane intake and a stock WCFB from a 1957 New Yorker motor I had and that big old tank ran and drove a bunch better with the single four set up
that surprised the heck out of me as I had not noticed the 1957 300 being a bunch different driving than the same size 1957 New Yorker we owned and drove before buying the 300. The New Yorker was quicker from a dead stop to around 60 MPH and then the 300 would drive around it and continue to pull away up to 120 MPH or so when both of them big old boats got to uncomfortable on handling to keep my left foot on the floor on the streets back then
Mopar learned it lesson on the 426 Street Hemi intakes, all of them where a dual plane intake with stagger jetting on the carbs to help on the fuel distribution at light part throttle driving and especially at WOT driving, look at the stock jetting on those carbs

This one had the original grind 292/509 Mopar cam

Thanks, that's a solid vacuum number for that old school cam.