Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2746844
02/26/20 07:38 PM
02/26/20 07:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,484 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,484
Fulton County, PA
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Deep. I would pull the pinion out maybe 010 and see what it looks like. If it's been run for a year, you may have to rely on the coast side since the drive side has been run in the wrong mesh. Used gears can be a pain.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2746848
02/26/20 07:45 PM
02/26/20 07:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,095 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,095
Bend,OR USA
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I tighten up the back lash on my old A/SA NHRA stocker, 1963 Plymouth 415 HP 426 M.W., it had 4.56 in the stock 742 case with the clutch type Dana posi like yours, that help make it quieter on the down hill return road in neutral I didn't try looking at the pattern, it had over .012 back lash with grease on both the ring gear and pinon gear. I have and do set up my own new gear sets in 8 3/4 and Dana 60 using a pinion depth tool for the pinion depth, not using just the pattern only I've been told many times over the years by race shops and other who do a lot of gear setting up to always go to the minimum back lash on both 8 3/4 and Dana 60 with new gears, street and strip or drag race only I do that now On your deal I would set the back lash to the minimum now and relook at the pattern to see if that helps make you feel better or not
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/26/20 07:46 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2746878
02/26/20 09:17 PM
02/26/20 09:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991
Benton, IL.
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As I said in the post, the lash was actually tighter and I backed the ring gear off a little. That improved the pattern. It moved the pattern back, closer to the middle of the gear. Especially on the drive side.
As I try to at least reduce the rear noise going down the road, I am also trying to understand the cause and effect of changes. So, since I pulled the ring gear away from the pinion and that improved the pattern by moving it back away from the toe and more into the middle, will moving the pinion away from the ring gear (as suggested) do the same thing while allowing me to move the ring gear back closer to the pinion giving it a tighter lash, as suggested?
Thanks for the help!
Master, again and still
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2746884
02/26/20 09:29 PM
02/26/20 09:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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As I said in the post, the lash was actually tighter and I backed the ring gear off a little. That improved the pattern. It moved the pattern back, closer to the middle of the gear. Especially on the drive side.
As I try to at least reduce the rear noise going down the road, I am also trying to understand the cause and effect of changes. So, since I pulled the ring gear away from the pinion and that improved the pattern by moving it back away from the toe and more into the middle, will moving the pinion away from the ring gear (as suggested) do the same thing while allowing me to move the ring gear back closer to the pinion giving it a tighter lash, as suggested?
Thanks for the help! Moving the pinion fore and aft is not the same as adjusting the lash. Backlash just allows for a tight enough engagement so that there's 1) room for oil and 2) room for thermal expansion. Pinion depth is primary and needs to be right. If the crush sleeve is keeping you from wanting to pull the pinion, it's not a bad time to invest in a crush sleeve eliminator. The sharp cutoff on the pattern shown looks to be too deep, to me. Most pattern books will show a fading clean spot, without a sharp line like that. Also, you want to make sure you get enough preload on the ring gear when running the pattern, or it won't show well. I usually use a pry bar or something similar to load it up pretty hard.
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#2746904
02/26/20 10:19 PM
02/26/20 10:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991
Benton, IL.
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I do understand that moving the pinion is very different than moving the ring gear. The point I was asking about was if moving the pinion forward (away from the ring gear) would influence the pattern change in some similar ways as moving the ring gear away from the pinion. I understand that they are doing different things, just wondering if the movement of the pattern was similar.
I already have the spacer and shims in there. And I use a pry bar to put some load on the mesh.
Thank you and I appreciate the tips. I have done this several times before. It's just been a while and then some of this info I never knew at all.
I'll pull the pinion tomorrow.
Master, again and still
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#2746921
02/26/20 11:59 PM
02/26/20 11:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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The pinion depth shim is 0.003"-0.005" too thick. At this point, I doubt you can cure the gear noise, however.
The differential cross shafts are also installed backward. Nice catch there Doc.
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2746924
02/27/20 12:19 AM
02/27/20 12:19 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,484 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,484
Fulton County, PA
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Pinion depth will influence the depth of the pattern on the tooth (face to flank). Backlash will influence the pattern mostly from heel to toe. Some shops recommend .010-.012 backlash, some say .008-.010. No two gear sets are the same. I usually end up in the .010-.011 area. Changing the depth will require the lash to be changed as well - move shim from one side to the other in just about the same amount you changed the depth to get it close.
This is for new gears. Again, if you have used gears, you may have to base your settings on the coast side pattern. Used gear can be frustrating and you may never get them quiet.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2746996
02/27/20 10:13 AM
02/27/20 10:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991
Benton, IL.
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Yeah, I fully expect that there is no way to get them completely quiet. I just thought I would try to reduce the noise some and at the same time experiment with the set-up to learn on a set of gears that I really can't hurt.
I'll blow it apart today and see what I can do.
Now, is it realistic to expect to be able to remove the pinion bearing without ruining it? And tips, tricks, or suggestions are welcome.
Master, again and still
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2747027
02/27/20 11:58 AM
02/27/20 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,265 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,265
Omaha Ne
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Yeah, I fully expect that there is no way to get them completely quiet. I just thought I would try to reduce the noise some and at the same time experiment with the set-up to learn on a set of gears that I really can't hurt.
I'll blow it apart today and see what I can do.
Now, is it realistic to expect to be able to remove the pinion bearing without ruining it? And tips, tricks, or suggestions are welcome. yes but the tools are not cheap. TOOLING. I have bought "set up bearings" for the more popular rear ends. IE: buy a new bearing, dremel sand the center to allow a slip fit on the pinion. You can now use it to get the desired shim thickness without destroying the bearing removing it. Once you have you pattern where you want it, press a new bearing on and assemble. Another method is used on the 9" ford (I think). They put the shims behind the race
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2747038
02/27/20 12:32 PM
02/27/20 12:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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Yeah, I fully expect that there is no way to get them completely quiet. I just thought I would try to reduce the noise some and at the same time experiment with the set-up to learn on a set of gears that I really can't hurt.
I'll blow it apart today and see what I can do.
Now, is it realistic to expect to be able to remove the pinion bearing without ruining it? And tips, tricks, or suggestions are welcome. I have pulled them with a good sharp bearing separator, sometimes not. The shims should be under the bearing cup. Test bearings would be smart, spend some time at carl jantz superjeep on you tube and watch how to slam a dana setup out. With test bearings you can change the shim and get a pattern in 5 minutes. Worth your time.
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: NITROUSN]
#2747131
02/27/20 04:50 PM
02/27/20 04:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991
Benton, IL.
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The reason I pulled it apart was due to the gear noise at road speed. I would guess that the forward shim being beat out was the root cause of that. But, believe it or not, the Sure Grip worked good, even with drag radials. It pulled both tires. Now, it would pop on some corners, especially going slow and turning tight, like backing into a parking place. But I have had that before on rears and just figured I needed more clutch lube in it.
Anybody got any shafts?
Master, again and still
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Re: Your opinion on this gear pattern
[Re: TJP]
#2747200
02/27/20 08:48 PM
02/27/20 08:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,991
Benton, IL.
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Most likely. Dr Diff has the shafts for $50 a pair, so it must not be that uncommon of a problem.
I am now trying to decide whether to repair the Sure Grip or to swap in a spool. And whether or not to replace the ring and pinion along with the bearings. I have never ran a spool before, so I am not sure if I would like it or not. And I only put 1,000 to 1,500 miles a year on the car. So I doubt I would wear the bearings out even if they have had some trash ran through them. They are smooth now and look good. And I won't know until I re-set the gears and run them, just how quiet they might be. As long as I can hear the radio and talk at road speed, then I would be happy. But, of course, I won't know that unless I run them.
I would welcome opinions and experiences on running a spool on the street.
Decisions, decisions.
Master, again and still
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