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Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: topside] #2738038
01/30/20 11:28 AM
01/30/20 11:28 AM
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Calgary, Alberta Canada
a12rag Offline OP
top fuel
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Calgary, Alberta Canada
Originally Posted by topside
You might also want to pull the thermostat & flush the cooling system.
Check the thermostat opening temp in a pot of water on the stove with a meat thermometer.
Water (I like distilled) cools better than anti-freeze; if you can do 70% water where you live, that helps.

Plus, there are some aero tricks:
1. Cover holes & gaps in the rad support so all the air goes through the radiator.
2. Put an air dam under the rad support to force more air up through the radiator.
3. Vent underhood heat, but it really won't look stock.

$125 for a stock-looking 3-row is a pretty smokin' deal, actually better than I thought.
We should be so fortunate in the Mopar world...


LOL . . . that was the price DIFFERENCE between the two types of rads . . . think it's $325 for brand new brass/copper versus $450 for the Alum rad. But yes, it is amazing the lower cost of the "Ford" parts . . .

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: a12rag] #2738051
01/30/20 12:08 PM
01/30/20 12:08 PM
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Houston,Tx.
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Lee446 Offline
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Another advantage to brass/copper is that it has the ability to be repaired, rodded out if it gets plugged up. If the aluminum ones get plugged, you buy a new one as I doubt you can find anyone to cut off the tanks, rod it, then re Tig weld it at a sane price. I run aluminum, but consider them disposable. I have been running two Champions for 6 years now and I am happy with their performance and price.

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: a12rag] #2738126
01/30/20 03:37 PM
01/30/20 03:37 PM
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I have to say I don't think it is the rad.
If it works at idle, then higher speeds don't generally reduce cooling.

Higher speed warm up is going to be caused by something else.
blocking air flow would be the first thing I would look at.

for instance a mechanical fan clutched, might be having issues with the clutch. I had one going bad, that allowed the car to warm up quite a bit on the highway.

Or an electric fan, aftermarket, that doesn't allow enough airflow at speed.

Or not enough water flow.
For instance that sucking shut the lower rad hose.
Or a pump going bad, not allowing enough flow.

I would ask if it cools off just fine once you come off the highway.
If so then I would say you don't actually have a cooling issue with your rad.

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: Cab_Burge] #2738603
02/01/20 04:51 AM
02/01/20 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Copper and brass will, if in good shape, transfer more heat into the air stream than aluminum will.


To Ponder: IRT heat dissipation: Why is a flat/semi black finish a (+) for a radiator, while chrome for a transmission pan may be a (-) ?

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: PhillyRag] #2738646
02/01/20 10:32 AM
02/01/20 10:32 AM
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Ohio
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jlatessa Offline
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Ohio
Maybe just for appearance, as in spraying black behind the grill??

Joe

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: jlatessa] #2738874
02/02/20 12:38 AM
02/02/20 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jlatessa
Maybe just for appearance, as in spraying black behind the grill?? Joe


IRT heat dissipation

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: PhillyRag] #2738885
02/02/20 01:56 AM
02/02/20 01:56 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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The radiator shops I've ask about the black paint on rebuilt radiators they did said that black paint is special that sucks more heat out of the water passages into the cooling fins, true or false confused shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: Cab_Burge] #2738889
02/02/20 03:04 AM
02/02/20 03:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,121
STAYcation Florida
NobleCrusader.. Offline
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Any kind of coating restricts heat transfer from a block or heads OR a radiator...

But I don’t think it’s a massive problem

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: Cab_Burge] #2738918
02/02/20 09:24 AM
02/02/20 09:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,469
Lake Orion, MI
goldduster318 Offline
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
The radiator shops I've ask about the black paint on rebuilt radiators they did said that black paint is special that sucks more heat out of the water passages into the cooling fins, true or false confused shruggy


Black has better emissivity, you have to be careful about the paint and also the thickness since at some point it would become a disadvantage since it would act like insulation.


'70 Duster 470hp 340/T56 Magnum/8 3/4 3.23 Sure-Grip
Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: Andrewh] #2739040
02/02/20 02:35 PM
02/02/20 02:35 PM
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Posts: 9,567
Omaha Ne
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TJP Offline
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Omaha Ne
Originally Posted by Andrewh
I have to say I don't think it is the rad.
If it works at idle, then higher speeds don't generally reduce cooling.

Higher speed warm up is going to be caused by something else.
blocking air flow would be the first thing I would look at.

for instance a mechanical fan clutched, might be having issues with the clutch. I had one going bad, that allowed the car to warm up quite a bit on the highway.

Or an electric fan, aftermarket, that doesn't allow enough airflow at speed.

Or not enough water flow.
For instance that sucking shut the lower rad hose.
Or a pump going bad, not allowing enough flow.

I would ask if it cools off just fine once you come off the highway.
If so then I would say you don't actually have a cooling issue with your rad.


I'll politely disagree as at highway speeds one is generating more heat. I had a 69 Coronet R/T (members car) with 22 inch Radiator. Measuring the temperature with a laboratory grade thermocouple probe and digital meter. The car had the same symptoms. I could type out a novel on the things tried and hours lost. There most definitely are other things that can lead to the problem but in my experience it is generally an inefficient core or undersized radiator. The final fix was sending the radiator to from Glen ray. He said the issue lies with the quality of the cores today and their efficiency.
That was about 5 years ago and last I heard it has never gone above 190 degrees PERIOD.
I probably lost over 200 hours on that one. Actually completely rebuilt the motor twice. As I said I could write a novel on the things tried.
This was a stock application and maintaining the stock radiator was required.

As to which is better IE: brass/copper vs aluminum. I do not think anyone can answer that question with any certainty as there are way to may variables involved. fins per inch, How they're attached, thickness of fins/ tubes, number of tubes, size of tubes, staggered tubes or not, and the list goes on

We later had a 65 GTO with the exact same issue. This car came in with a reproduction radiator that was less than a year old and a new motor. Getting a core installed from Glen rays suggested source again cured the problem. twocents beer

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: goldduster318] #2739844
02/05/20 04:41 AM
02/05/20 04:41 AM
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Quote
Black has better emissivity, you have to be careful about the paint and also the thickness since at some point it would become a disadvantage since it would act like insulation.


You got that. Most think of black as a Heat Absorbing color, which it is. But wrt cars it's mostly about Dissipating heat.

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: NobleCrusader..] #2739865
02/05/20 09:28 AM
02/05/20 09:28 AM
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North East USA
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Originally Posted by Doc Fiberglass
Any kind of coating restricts heat transfer from a block or heads OR a radiator...

But I don’t think it’s a massive problem


As much as you and I want to believe this your statement is incorrect. I need to dig out some white papers related to cooling of hydro-static systems in large earth moving equipment done by a multi billion dollar corporation. The long and the short was painted components (including tubing etc) increase the systems cooling efficiency. Heads and blocks are no where as efficient at eliminating heat when compared to your radiator and oil cooler. Get the heat to your properly sized cooling components so they may eliminate it. I was most surprised by the recommendation to paint hydraulic tubing vs plating.

After reading that paper I wouldn't hesitate to paint aluminum heads for a more stock appearance.

Feel free to flame away!

TY
Red

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: BIGGERED] #2740097
02/05/20 07:36 PM
02/05/20 07:36 PM
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STAYcation Florida
NobleCrusader.. Offline
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Yo Red .... me thimks your premise is DEAD !

I’d like to see the papers you say exist tsk

FIRST THING that comes to mind that blows your belief out of the water is the operational effect of jet hot coating of exhaust system items.

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: NobleCrusader..] #2740294
02/06/20 12:21 PM
02/06/20 12:21 PM
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Posts: 12,878
north of coder
moparx Offline
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i always thought exhaust coatings were to keep the heat IN, so as to speed up the exhaust flow. shruggy
beer

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: moparx] #2740425
02/06/20 05:18 PM
02/06/20 05:18 PM
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Ohio
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jlatessa Offline
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Correct....

Joe

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: jlatessa] #2740635
02/07/20 11:55 AM
02/07/20 11:55 AM
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north of coder
moparx Offline
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so with that in mind, engines make more hp at a "given" temperature, so has anyone dyno'd a bare engine's hp, then painted it and dyno'd it again for comparison ?
just for example, a new hellcat has a high temperature thermostat, while most here worry when the temperature on an older muscle engine gets to 190.
myself, i don't start to worry until i see 235 or so. [provided of course, the engine is built right with quality components]
am i really crazy ? [wait, don't answer that ! laugh2]
beer

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: moparx] #2740651
02/07/20 01:12 PM
02/07/20 01:12 PM
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Trumussia
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jcc Offline
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Well consider 1 Hp is approx 754 watts, A 754 watt heater puts our a bit of heat IMO. Hopping for a power increase of multiple HP would sure be a significant reduction in radiant heat, by a engine color change ,enough i suspect one would notice it by simply opening the hood of a running motor. that has never been an observation I read here.

The takeaway, yes the motor emits less heat with a lighter color. Is it measurable, maybe, Is it much, not enough for us to care. twocents

Also, I am no making a clear distinction above between headers/color and engine color. They are separate issues.

And Jenkins in Pro stock is claimed to paint his motors white, so there. eek biggrin

Last edited by jcc; 02/07/20 01:16 PM.

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Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: jcc] #2740678
02/07/20 02:41 PM
02/07/20 02:41 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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I remember reading about Grumpy always painting the inner fenders, under hood and radiator cross support white to help keep heat in the motor according to that article, but maybe he was messing with the writer whistling


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: NobleCrusader..] #2740902
02/08/20 10:04 AM
02/08/20 10:04 AM
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North East USA
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Originally Posted by Doc Fiberglass
Yo Red .... me thimks your premise is DEAD !

I’d like to see the papers you say exist tsk

FIRST THING that comes to mind that blows your belief out of the water is the operational effect of jet hot coating of exhaust system items.


Yo Stoney the jet hot makes my case! It may be extremely beneficial to jet hot everything sans heat exchanger but the cost would be ridiculous!
TY
Red

Re: Radiator - Brass/Copper or Alum [Re: BIGGERED] #2740911
02/08/20 11:01 AM
02/08/20 11:01 AM
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Yo Doc I haven’t found the white paper yet, but the below addresses painting components not quite as scientifically but I can find more.

Note the discussion was comparing hose Vs tubing.

“ Tube is Cool
Hydraulic tubing has some compelling advantages of its own. One of these is its superior heat transfer, especially if it’s painted.

One aspect of heat transfer is thermal radiation. The total radiation from an object is the sum of its reflection, emissivity and transmission of heat through the object.

When hydraulic tubing is painted, it reduces its reflectance and increases its emissivity, enabling better heat rejection, as this case study published in Hydraulics and Pneumatics magazine1 illustrates:

New call-to-action

An industrial hydraulic installation was originally designed to operate at 1,200 psi and at a maximum operating temperature of 120 degrees Fahrenheit (49 degrees Celsius). Zinc dichromate-coated steel tube distributes fluid from the 600-liter reservoir to the various stations around the plant. Over the years, the system had been added to (without any increase in installed cooling capacity)—to the point where it was now overheating in the summer months.

Because the system operated satisfactorily for 10 months out of the year, management did not want to spend the money necessary to upgrade the cooling system. So, one of the maintenance guys on staff who was familiar with the thermal radiation theory described earlier suggested painting the hydraulic system’s tubing.

Before proceeding, the maintenance team did a test. Team members applied electrical tape to two of the hydraulic tubes, and using an infrared camera, they measured the difference in temperature between the taped and untaped areas. They found the taped areas on the tubes were 7 degrees F (4 degrees C) cooler than the untaped areas.

This gave the maintenance team the confidence to proceed with the idea. Because the rest of the hydraulic system was painted flat white, the tubing was painted the same color.

And, the result? A week and 12 cans of spray paint later, the system was running 10 degrees F (5.5 degrees C) cooler. This might not sound like much, but the end result meant that the hydraulic system could now operate through the two hottest months of the year without overheating. It also meant that the need to increase installed cooling capacity was at least deferred, if not eliminated.”

There are many things in life we believe that are untrue! Maybe at your advanced age and rate ov dEcAY, learnin aiNt n0 longer possible?

Some of my initial description of why, may be incorrect!

TY
Red

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