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Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: ricomondo] #2737166
01/27/20 05:58 PM
01/27/20 05:58 PM
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NicBuc Offline
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Here are the names of the 7 others who were killed:

Alyssa Altobelli (Gianna's basketball teammate), Alyssa's father - John Altobelli, Alyssa's mother - Keri Altobelli
Christina Mauser, a basketball coach at the nearby Harbor Day School
Payton Chester, a middle-school student, Sarah Chester - Payton's mother
Ara Zobayan, the pilot

Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: AndyF] #2737167
01/27/20 06:03 PM
01/27/20 06:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,774
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Yeah I'm sure that factored into it. The flight had been delayed for 15 minutes while they waited for other traffic and the pilot was trying to get the girls and the coaches to their game so I'm sure he was stepping on it. When I saw that they were flying at 185 mph in the fog at low altitude over a heavily populated area I was thinking that seemed a little fast. But it was a very sophisticated helicopter and the pilot was super qualified. Something went wrong.


More comments from the retired Army helo pilot on the other board:

"At one point ATC called him and asked something to the effect of'“Confirm you are VFR?' This is ATC calling BS that he was actually VFR in as professional a way as possible."

"I don’t think he got slow though. 168kts is REALLY fast for a helicopter. Typical cruise speed is 90-110kts. I think he got disoriented, nosed the aircraft down because that’s what his ears and body were telling him to do, and accelerated straight into the ground. Speculation though."


Also had this question posed to him, and this was his response:

Q: Would it be fair to say he was trying to save time? Quicker to fly VFR than to have to file and deal with that? Sounds like he was certified to fly instruments but not sure if it was on that type.

A: More like ‘save his job’. It is illegal to fly IMC on a VFR flight plan, and pilots get fired for putting passengers and aircraft at risk for flying in IMC when they took off VFR and was easily avoidable, because people die when they do.



Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck.

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Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: not_a_charger] #2737183
01/27/20 06:26 PM
01/27/20 06:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
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85086
moparpollack Offline
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RIP Kobe!

I have a love hate relation ship with helicopters. Loved taking a helicopter flight rather than convoy in Afghanistan. But helicopters are very prone to crashes and if weather moves in you have to turn around quickly. Sometimes you just have to wait until the weather clears.


56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: NicBuc] #2737205
01/27/20 07:19 PM
01/27/20 07:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,346
It's a dry heat
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Originally Posted by NicBuc
Here are the names of the 7 others who were killed:

Alyssa Altobelli (Gianna's basketball teammate), Alyssa's father - John Altobelli, Alyssa's mother - Keri Altobelli
Christina Mauser, a basketball coach at the nearby Harbor Day School
Payton Chester, a middle-school student, Sarah Chester - Payton's mother
Ara Zobayan, the pilot


Four families Shattered permantly.

Sad for all

Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: moparpollack] #2737228
01/27/20 08:21 PM
01/27/20 08:21 PM
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Georgia
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I talked to my brother about accident today.
He is retired CW4 and has thousands of hours in the Apache.
He made several comments similar to ones made earlier.

As stated earlier in this thread weather can get you. Pilots get distracted (talking on radio's, looking at maps ..ect and they loose their
situational awareness.
Sometimes they take unnecessary chances.

I am sure it will come out after the investigation.

One thing I specifically asked him was why was he flying under Special Visual Flight Rules if he was instrument rated and had a lot of experience.
He said he should not have been ….no excuse.

Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: gtx6970] #2737234
01/27/20 08:43 PM
01/27/20 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gtx6970
Originally Posted by NicBuc
Here are the names of the 7 others who were killed:

Alyssa Altobelli (Gianna's basketball teammate), Alyssa's father - John Altobelli, Alyssa's mother - Keri Altobelli
Christina Mauser, a basketball coach at the nearby Harbor Day School
Payton Chester, a middle-school student, Sarah Chester - Payton's mother
Ara Zobayan, the pilot


Four families Shattered permantly.

Sad for all


Agreed! Sad thing is, I just watched an hour of "news" and absolutely no mention of these families......however,if I would have taken a drink every time I heard Kobe, I would be sleeping it off by now. down

Last edited by Dcuda69; 01/27/20 08:44 PM.
Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: gtx6970] #2737239
01/27/20 08:58 PM
01/27/20 08:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Originally Posted by gtx6970
Originally Posted by NicBuc
Here are the names of the 7 others who were killed:

Alyssa Altobelli (Gianna's basketball teammate), Alyssa's father - John Altobelli, Alyssa's mother - Keri Altobelli
Christina Mauser, a basketball coach at the nearby Harbor Day School
Payton Chester, a middle-school student, Sarah Chester - Payton's mother
Ara Zobayan, the pilot


Four families Shattered permantly.

Sad for all


I keep thinking about the older Altobelli girl. She woke up in the morning in a normal family and by 10am she was an orphan. Her mother, father and younger sister were killed in the crash. I can't even imagine what that would be like as a kid. Your mom and dad leave you home alone so they can take your sister to a ball game and then you turn on the TV and find out that they are never coming home. That would be very, very traumatic. Hopefully she has some other family near by to step in and help her.

Last edited by AndyF; 01/27/20 08:58 PM.
Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: AndyF] #2737245
01/27/20 09:06 PM
01/27/20 09:06 PM
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Based on many aircraft crashes/fatalities, there can be seconds to a minute of what must be pure horror as the crash plays out for the passengers.

I'm thinking so far, this one was effectively instant.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: AndyF] #2737246
01/27/20 09:06 PM
01/27/20 09:06 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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I remember the first night of ground school, I started in the middle of it, the instructor said 95% of general aviation accidents are pilot error, I didn't believe him them and found out as I became a pilot later he was correct shock
I had sold 2 of my drag cars at the end of 1988 and had the money and time to learn to fly so I started right away after taking a 45 minute demonstration flight at the local training facility in Apple Valley, CA
I've flown over that crash site years ago in a friends airplane flying to Santa Barbara airport to pick up his two daughter who had spent the weekend their with a friend of there family, that is a very hilly region between the coast and the San Gabriel Mountain and the end of the Sierra Mountain range to the east in Antelope Valley. The Hollywood hills are to the south of that valley also so radio contact with L.A. Approach, the air traffic center for that area, is no good below the hill and mountain tops, we found that out the hard way on that trip shock
I don't remember the MEA, minimum enroute altitude, for that area but I would bet money it is above 4000 FT. above sea level.
Helicopters may have a special flight path through that valley from the San Fernando Valley west towards Santa Barbara and the Ventura areas with a lower MEA, maybe not shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: Dcuda69] #2737327
01/28/20 03:05 AM
01/28/20 03:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,900
Gabba Gabba Hey! NYC
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Originally Posted by Dcuda69


Agreed! Sad thing is, I just watched an hour of "news" and absolutely no mention of these families......however,if I would have taken a drink every time I heard Kobe, I would be sleeping it off by now. down


I've seen mention of the others all over the Internet, and on TV too.

A person's value is not based on whether he/she's mentioned or not.

Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: Diego (not Ted)] #2737362
01/28/20 09:58 AM
01/28/20 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego (not Ted)
Originally Posted by Dcuda69


Agreed! Sad thing is, I just watched an hour of "news" and absolutely no mention of these families......however,if I would have taken a drink every time I heard Kobe, I would be sleeping it off by now. down


I've seen mention of the others all over the Internet, and on TV too.

A person's value is not based on whether he/she's mentioned or not.


Did I mention people's value? What I was referring to was the lack of respect given to the others involved in this tragedy because the media makes it all about the "celebrity". Maybe you saw something about the others but I watched an hour of both local and national news and heard ZERO reference to ANYONE else....Kobe was mentioned a 100 times though as well as a handful of interviews with a bunch of other "celebs" about their reactions.

Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: Dcuda69] #2737380
01/28/20 11:19 AM
01/28/20 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by Diego (not Ted)
Originally Posted by Dcuda69


Agreed! Sad thing is, I just watched an hour of "news" and absolutely no mention of these families......however,if I would have taken a drink every time I heard Kobe, I would be sleeping it off by now. down


I've seen mention of the others all over the Internet, and on TV too.

A person's value is not based on whether he/she's mentioned or not.


Did I mention people's value? What I was referring to was the lack of respect given to the others involved in this tragedy because the media makes it all about the "celebrity". Maybe you saw something about the others but I watched an hour of both local and national news and heard ZERO reference to ANYONE else....Kobe was mentioned a 100 times though as well as a handful of interviews with a bunch of other "celebs" about their reactions.


Yup, most people and the media are only talking about Kobe because he put a ball through a hoop. Big f'ing deal. I'd be more interested in the life stories of the others. And I bet none of them is a rapist.

Re: What Helicopter Crash ? [Re: AndyF] #2737384
01/28/20 11:33 AM
01/28/20 11:33 AM
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One of the pilots at lunch , said the pilot asked for flying guidance- the tower tracking him and giving instructions- and the last traffic to the pilot was that he was flying too low for them to pick him up on radar. The pilot didn't respond to that last traffic.


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Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: NicBuc] #2737385
01/28/20 11:33 AM
01/28/20 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by NicBuc
Originally Posted by Dcuda69
Originally Posted by Diego (not Ted)
Originally Posted by Dcuda69


Agreed! Sad thing is, I just watched an hour of "news" and absolutely no mention of these families......however,if I would have taken a drink every time I heard Kobe, I would be sleeping it off by now. down


I've seen mention of the others all over the Internet, and on TV too.

A person's value is not based on whether he/she's mentioned or not.


Did I mention people's value? What I was referring to was the lack of respect given to the others involved in this tragedy because the media makes it all about the "celebrity". Maybe you saw something about the others but I watched an hour of both local and national news and heard ZERO reference to ANYONE else....Kobe was mentioned a 100 times though as well as a handful of interviews with a bunch of other "celebs" about their reactions.


Yup, most people and the media are only talking about Kobe because he put a ball through a hoop. Big f'ing deal. I'd be more interested in the life stories of the others. And I bet none of them is an accused rapist.
My edit.

I would suspect because the others are not celebrities, nobody would ever accuse them of being a rapist.

Since nobody is perfect, we can consider also how few apologize for their mistakes, in sizing up one's true character.

But the point no one should overlook, all lives matter.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: jcc] #2737387
01/28/20 11:38 AM
01/28/20 11:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Here
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Celebrities mean a lot to a lot of people. Be it Kobe, Prince, Dale Earnhardt, Princess Diana - many take their deaths hard. To each his own, I don't begrudge them for doing it.


Ride eternal, shiny and chrome
Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: Dcuda69] #2737425
01/28/20 01:33 PM
01/28/20 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dcuda69


Did I mention people's value? What I was referring to was the lack of respect given to the others involved in this tragedy


You'll have to forgive me because when I see a reference to "lack of respect" I infer the suggestion that the others are valued less.

Again, there are profiles of the others all over the media. The only reason we know who they are is because they were on a copter with Kobe. When was the last time there was an aviation accident and we didn't bother to learn who the perished were?

The fact is that some celebrities have meaning to people, especially in the sports tribe. They're allowed to mourn in the way they see fit. For 60 years we've been doing it with "The Day the Music Died" (but....but what about the pilot?) and other tragic events in popular culture. Just more business as usual.

Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: Diego (not Ted)] #2737430
01/28/20 02:05 PM
01/28/20 02:05 PM
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On the run…
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Some things, correction, most things will never change.


It really doesn't matter whether you win or lose…
as long as you look good doing it!

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Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: Diego (not Ted)] #2737611
01/29/20 07:59 AM
01/29/20 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego (not Ted)
Originally Posted by Dcuda69


Did I mention people's value? What I was referring to was the lack of respect given to the others involved in this tragedy


You'll have to forgive me because when I see a reference to "lack of respect" I infer the suggestion that the others are valued less.

Again, there are profiles of the others all over the media. The only reason we know who they are is because they were on a copter with Kobe. When was the last time there was an aviation accident and we didn't bother to learn who the perished were?

The fact is that some celebrities have meaning to people, especially in the sports tribe. They're allowed to mourn in the way they see fit. For 60 years we've been doing it with "The Day the Music Died" (but....but what about the pilot?) and other tragic events in popular culture. Just more business as usual.


That's what I was thinking when I read this. Most often when there is an aviation tragedy you only hear that it happened and the number of souls that were lost. You almost never hear anything about any of the passengers' life stories, and you typically hear one or two mentions of the crash and then nothing. So I don't know why there would be some expectation of hearing the life stories of the non-celebrities involved in the crash.

For that matter, thousands of people die every day and most of us don't hear anything of them at all, unless they happen to be a well-known celebrity. Which is probably a good thing as most families want privacy when they lose a loved one, not news coverage. twocents

Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: ChryCoGuy] #2737770
01/29/20 03:25 PM
01/29/20 03:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,774
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
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Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
One more from the retired Army pilot:

"Watched the NTSB press statement.

There is very little doubt in my mind the guy was disoriented in low visibility.

He was flying into rising terrain, looked like most of the hilltops around him would have been obscured.

He made the decision to turn around and fly out the say he came in.

That is the most dangerous time in an abort sequence due to weather, especially if visibility is low, and you try to maintain VFR, and don’t transition to the instruments.

Turns in general IFR are fairly difficult.

You have to watch your artificial horizon, your torque gauge, your turn and slip indicator, and your vertical speed indicator.

If you’re also trying to watch for obstacles outside, it is VERY easy to become rapidly disoriented, and put the aircraft into a rate of descent in the middle of your turn.

I’ve done it while distracted by mission critical tasks in the aircraft, and making radio calls.

Ended up 1000ft below where I should have been in what seemed like a couple of seconds.

It happens.

Thankfully I had altitude to spare, and caught it before we hit the deck.

Aviation is an inherently unforgiving profession. What would be an ‘oops situation’ in a car is more often than not fatal in aviation.

Think about all the times you’ve been driving, and thought to yourself... oops... missed your turn, caused some kind of minor incident, or major incident. In the sky. That could be the end of you."


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Re: R.I.P Kobe Bryant [Re: not_a_charger] #2737847
01/29/20 08:04 PM
01/29/20 08:04 PM
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So Cal
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There has been alot of information and conjecture about this tragic happening...
But I do believe some further clarifications are required:
1. We were in the San Fernando Valley Sunday morning and I can confirm the fog was heavy and dense. And we do know the crash site hilly topology well as it is adjacent to a popular road (Malibu Canyon) we often take going to Malibu off the 101 freeway.
2. The route to their destination does follow the 101 freeway, as this pilot, Bryant, copter have made the same trip multiple times. But not during dense fog conditions, in SoCal we do get frequent overcast conditions but typically this occurs more frequently to the west along the nearby coast..
3. The 15 minute holding east of Glendale was due to existing traffic @ Burbank and Van Nuys airports, and overcast conditions. Note that Van Nuys airport is 1 of the busiest with >500K take-offs/landings ever year.
4. Business jet traffic was Van Nuys can often be very busy as many studios and celebrities fly out of there.
5. Various news reports state that their destination was in Thousand Oaks, this is true. However Thousand Oaks has no airport or appropriate landing spot, instead they fly to Camarillo airport which is about 7 miles away from Thousand Oaks. Their usual MO is to land @ Camarillo and take a limo to the Academy, so yes if they were running late there would be pressure on the pilot to expedite the flight.

In closing, like many we are greatly stunned by this incredible, sad tragic as Kobe was 1 of the most popular sport and culture personalities in Southern California.

Just my $0.02... wink

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