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Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? #2736062
01/24/20 11:17 AM
01/24/20 11:17 AM
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moparmitch Offline OP
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Hello and Happy Friday to All,

For bench racing fun, what are your thoughts on a modern DEDICATED bracket/index car with a glide or a 727 (for competitive/consistent times)?

It would basically be a Drag Pak without the Drag Pak price, weight, or speed – lol

I’m thinking a 13 or 12 second car ( older R/T or 392 car) with a glide for a trans (or a 727 for the Mopar religious), racing seat only, with the full dash, doors, and power windows left in the car. Selective parts and pieces could be removed where applicable to help with some reasonable weight reduction i.e. carpet, rear seats, trunk interior, maybe replace some glass with lighter material, etc.…basically keep the functioning dash (speedo, tach, engine gauges) and power windows as operated by the pcm.

Lighter racing wheels and tires ( 28X9 slicks) would be used along with the IRS rear suspension (3.92 diff or similar) setup with some basic pieces to help achieve consistent launches and repeatable times.

You get the idea…

I’m seeing higher mileage 2011/2012 R/Ts in the $14-$15K price range. Now, the remaining cost for the above described make-over would be affected by necessity and priority and could be obtained at a slower rate as finances and time permit.

If the stock 5 speed auto could run very consistent times and be reliable with slicks, then swapping the trans or rear diff wouldn’t even be needed and a lot of money and hassle would be reduced. This setup would be a foot brake only car and that's still OK.

Would something like HP tuners need to be used for the engine, dash, windows to operate with an old school trans or would the stock PCM and other electronics even care?

Again, this is for a modern Challenger dedicated to weekend ET fun at the local tracks and wanting to be consistent and competitive.

Anyone done this or know someone who has?

Thanks!

Last edited by moparmitch; 01/30/20 07:57 PM.
Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736222
01/24/20 05:28 PM
01/24/20 05:28 PM
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There are two things about modern cars that I've found to be a hindrance to bracket racing: fly by wore throttle control and vacuum assisted brakes.

When I sold my racecar and decided to goof around at a Halloween event with my Crown Vic, the throttle response was so slow due to the electronics I had to leave on the 2nd yellow to cut a light. Flat on the floor for a full bulb before that 4.6 even came off idle. 4th round, needed to kill about .04 and when I swapped feet quickly, no brakes. Car didn't have enough time off WOT to build vacuum to assist with braking.

Fix those two issues (I'm honestly not even sure new Challengers use electronic throttle control), then it would as good as any car, even with the stock drivertrain. Next challenge is how difficult it is to see outta those things.

Also, if you're gonna swap transmissions and it's a dedicated racecar, a glide is King. Even the Drag Paks avoided 727s or 518s, they used TH400s.


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Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: A39Coronet] #2736239
01/24/20 06:07 PM
01/24/20 06:07 PM
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I would try racing a stock one before you go through the trouble, they are probably pretty consistent in stock form. I do not think the transmission would be the reason behind it if it wasn't. Modern engines will pull timing and add and subtract fuel if there is wide swings in intake air or coolant temp. If you can keep those consistent I imagine the time slips would be pretty close. I know a Local guy with a hellcat challenger and when it was stock I saw him run several 10.87 and 10.88 passes in a row.

I would love to have a 1320 Challenger, I would probably bracket race every weekend I could because it would be a simple drive to the track and get in the lanes operation.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: Bad340fish] #2736266
01/24/20 07:28 PM
01/24/20 07:28 PM
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moparmitch Offline OP
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Yes, the drive by wire throttles are not sensitive enough stock, but I'm sure that can be tweaked significantly with a tuning software. I believe the gas pedal to throttle blade ratio (sensitivity) can be altered to suit desired response. A cable operated unit could be adapted, but would take a little effort. As for brakes, I haven't noticed any issues with modern cars at the track.

The last several years or so, I've rented a Challenger R/T, Chevy SS Camaro, Mustang GT, and taken them all to the track for a day of racing. I went six or seven rounds to lose in the trophy final at a local track in Lapeer, MI. Myself and the other racers couldn't believe how well the Camaro's heads up display and paddle shifters complimented each other for consistent mid 13 ET slips. The Challenger was rented in Tucson AZ and taken to Wild Horse Pass for two days. It ran low 14s with high 13s as a best, but I couldn't get it dialed correctly, but I also didn't put a lot of effort into getting it dialed in, just had fun with it. The Challenger was easily the most comfortable and fun car to drive. I'm window shopping for an older one to drive after our snow and winter garbage is gone.

I think the 1320 cars are cool too, but certainly beyond my price point. I'm liking the idea of a 2011-2012 ish R/T for around 14-15K as it won't break the bank. If a 5 speed auto R/T can handle 9 inch slicks, maybe it could run good numbers and go a few rounds. I need to look into this and see if the trans and rear end pieces can take this. Shouldn't be too bad on parts foot braking and at 375 fly wheel HP numbers. A same year 392 car would have more power and stronger parts, but the prices go up another 5k or more for high mileage examples. Also, the 392 has much more potential with tuning and bolt-on parts. This actually makes the most sense...

Last edited by moparmitch; 01/24/20 07:32 PM.
Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736270
01/24/20 07:40 PM
01/24/20 07:40 PM
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TH400


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: Dragula] #2736277
01/24/20 08:02 PM
01/24/20 08:02 PM
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moparmitch Offline OP
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Sure, a TH400 is an awesome piece and used for many rides as a proven performer.

My choice would be a glide, thinking one and done shifting and less violent launches would help with consistency, but this is just speculation and maybe not relevant in the low power examples I've given.

I see you run 3 speeds in powerful cars. How is your consistency/accuracy?

Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736310
01/24/20 09:43 PM
01/24/20 09:43 PM
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There's a local kid/guy that races as 2012 5.7 Hemi Challenger R/T in the bracket points racing that's consistent enough that he was going to the finals in Indy this last fall.

The car is modded some but nothing drastic (tuned, headers, 6.1 intake, etc) and he runs in the upper 12's.

It has to be fairly consistent for him to do that well in bracket points racing so I think that it's doable with a late model.

I agree that the drive by wire delay is an issue with being consistent.
I've heard of people using a GM or aftermarket throttle body to eliminate the drive by wire setup shruggy.


Kayse can't keep up at all now. lol
Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: SNK-EYZ] #2736340
01/24/20 11:10 PM
01/24/20 11:10 PM
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moparmitch Offline OP
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This is great info, thanks!

Is there anyway you could help me contact this person?

Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736365
01/25/20 03:46 AM
01/25/20 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by moparmitch
This is great info, thanks!

Is there anyway you could help me contact this person?


Sent you a pm.


Kayse can't keep up at all now. lol
Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: SNK-EYZ] #2736415
01/25/20 09:24 AM
01/25/20 09:24 AM
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I think you could race on a set of slicks with a stock'ish car and never worry about the trans or rear axle. I imagine you would be fine well into the 11s with an automatic car.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: Bad340fish] #2736431
01/25/20 10:51 AM
01/25/20 10:51 AM
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moparmitch Offline OP
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I did not receive a PM from anyone. Anyone else having issues with private messaging? This isn't the first time I've had issues sending and/or receiving messages.


Consistent and reliable 11 second passes on stock parts (especially R/T) would be awesome. I think foot braking may add to longevity. Good stuff.

Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736469
01/25/20 12:22 PM
01/25/20 12:22 PM
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I'm not at the track every weekend but there is a fair amount of LX platform cars there every time I am. I have only seen one break something and it was a 6 speed on slicks that broke a driveshaft. A good slick will probably prolong parts life because it will be far less likely to get the tire hop that radials can get especially with independent rear suspension.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736479
01/25/20 12:56 PM
01/25/20 12:56 PM
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Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: Bad340fish] #2736575
01/25/20 05:12 PM
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moparmitch Offline OP
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Good to know, thanks for the info.


Anyone seen a glide in an N/A challenger at the track?

Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736649
01/25/20 09:17 PM
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moparmitch Offline OP
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Interesting info to add...

A manual trans car may be a better car to convert to a glide or 3 speed auto as the manual PCM may be better suited to the auto conversion, because it won't care what's behind the engine. An automatic cars PCM looking for the oem trans communication may cause some issue with engine tuning. Not sure, if anyone has thoughts on this please share.

Additionally from some general web searching, it appears the oem automatic cars come with a 3.06 diff ratio while the manual cars come with a 3.73 (18 inch tires) or a 3.92 (20 inch tires). Either of these manual diff ratios could be used as is for a trans swap. Also, I'm wondering if other pieces in the rear suspension/cradle are factory upgraded to handle the manual trans.

Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736689
01/26/20 12:25 AM
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I see those deeper geared centers for sale on lxforums.com and Cleveland power so seems like you wouldn't have but a car that has one


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Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2736824
01/26/20 04:12 PM
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I think Rob Goss is still using a Gluid


Bob(Cowboy)Hogan
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Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: moparmitch] #2737135
01/27/20 04:06 PM
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With the electronic controls I can't imagine getting better consistency than keeping the Wa580. They can upshift at WOT within about 50-100 RPM's every time. I don't think you can come close to that with a hydraulic trans.

Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: 73MagDuster] #2737265
01/27/20 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 73MagDuster
With the electronic controls I can't imagine getting better consistency than keeping the Wa580. They can upshift at WOT within about 50-100 RPM's every time. I don't think you can come close to that with a hydraulic trans.


The benefit of a glide is you have a low ratio 1st, leaving like a slug, followed by one single shift. Match that to a time-based electronic or pneumatic shifter with a loose converter, that's a deadly combination.

Last edited by A39Coronet; 01/27/20 09:52 PM.

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Re: Dedicated Bracket Car-Modern Challenger With a Glide or 727? [Re: A39Coronet] #2737424
01/28/20 01:22 PM
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moparmitch Offline OP
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Originally Posted by A39Coronet
Originally Posted by 73MagDuster
With the electronic controls I can't imagine getting better consistency than keeping the Wa580. They can upshift at WOT within about 50-100 RPM's every time. I don't think you can come close to that with a hydraulic trans.


The benefit of a glide is you have a low ratio 1st, leaving like a slug, followed by one single shift. Match that to a time-based electronic or pneumatic shifter with a loose converter, that's a deadly combination.


From what I've seen at the track as well on You Tube, most of the successful E.T. racers use a glide. Seems like it's hard to argue against a single shift vs multiple shifts and the accumulated time variances, however small they might be. As stated above, the less violent and calmer launch of a glide in ET racing has proven itself. With that said, I don't have any information on how consistent an A580 trans can be. I'm currently trying to get in touch with someone who regularly bracket races an A580 Challenger and will report back any new info.

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