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Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2735224
01/21/20 11:18 AM
01/21/20 11:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,496
Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda Offline
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Posts: 3,496
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Just a few things I can think of right now that I've seen from running my own stuff...

1. A vacuum pump only helps w/ oil leaks on a mid 9 sec NA 572. Saw zero performance difference, but it did stop the little annoying oil leaks. Had low tension rings in it too. Might work better on other combos, but I certainly don't think it's worth it.


Chip,
Everyone's experience can be different on this.

On my 700 hp 346 inch small block the higher you crank the vacuum the more horsepower you get. My memory fails me on the specifics but I think at 10" its worth about 10 HP and if I went to Pro Stock territory over 15.

My biggest issue has been getting the engine really sealed up to hold vacuum. I ended up getting a cheap smoke system to test for leaks to prevent the dreaded dyno embarrassment.

That all being said I have seen many knowledgeable folks like yourself with experiences exactly like yours. However I think its something anyone serious should at least try, especially if they have a light ring pack.

Bill

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2735252
01/21/20 12:36 PM
01/21/20 12:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566
Texas
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RustyM Offline
mopar
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Texas
for us: 3450 lbs car and driver, 512 .indy heads etc:
Removing mechanical fan and going electric, dropped a .02 et
Wilson ported intake , dropped just shy of a tenth.
new converter, cope racing trans- dropped et and improved 60ft.
Dual adjustable front shocks and single adjustable rears - improved 60 ft and et.
Data gathering of afr/vacuum/rpm allowed us to tune and really made us consistent and faster.
Went from 6.72 to a best of 6.38 and car is really consistent in running what Da allows.
( 1/8 mile numbers)

Other than that, just a basic/solid built 511 , low maintenance set up .

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: RustyM] #2735253
01/21/20 12:38 PM
01/21/20 12:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,851
United Socialist States of Ame...
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United Socialist States of Ame...
Originally Posted by RustyM
for us: 3450 lbs car and driver, 512 .indy heads etc:
Removing mechanical fan and going electric, dropped a .02 et
Wilson ported intake , dropped just shy of a tenth.
new converter, cope racing trans- dropped et and improved 60ft.
Dual adjustable front shocks and single adjustable rears - improved 60 ft and et.
Data gathering of afr/vacuum/rpm allowed us to tune and really made us consistent and faster.
Went from 6.72 to a best of 6.38 and car is really consistent in running what Da allows.
( 1/8 mile numbers)

Other than that, just a basic/solid built 511 , low maintenance set up .

Curious here...What is your 60'... wave


The end is near.....
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: tboomer] #2735278
01/21/20 02:00 PM
01/21/20 02:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566
Texas
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RustyM Offline
mopar
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Texas
went from low to mid 1.50's to 1.38-140"s , will be looking for sub 1.35's this year.
Best last year was a 1.36.
Folks around here say we cant get it to low 130"s so, its a quest to prove them wrong .
Biggest problem on our 60ft's seems to be the cam we have , its just a little .625 /625 at 275@ 50

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2735294
01/21/20 02:56 PM
01/21/20 02:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,005
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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Tulsa OK
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Just a few things I can think of right now that I've seen from running my own stuff...

3. Zero difference b/t spark plug wires. MSD, Taylor, and Firecore...pick the ones that LOOK good to you, b/c they will run the same. I think the ignition market has more gimmick sales pitches than any other...well, maybe motor oil has more.



I think there is lots of re boxing there. That wire has uses for industrial stuff and I am sure the Ignition guys just pick out a wire they like and then build stuff from there. Whoever actually makes the wire is probably way larger than MSD or Taylor or FireCore.

I bought some summit branded cut to fit stuff for my coil near plug setup. $43 nice quality wire that has to be made by Taylor or whoever makes Taylor's stuff. The boot style, wire color, and feel sure feel like Taylor or whomever makes wire for Taylor.

Note: I am no expert so nobody get upset because its just my observation lol


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: RustyM] #2735301
01/21/20 03:08 PM
01/21/20 03:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,851
United Socialist States of Ame...
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tboomer Offline
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Thanks!


The end is near.....
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: Bad340fish] #2735304
01/21/20 03:22 PM
01/21/20 03:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,651
Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Wichita
Originally Posted by Bad340fish
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Just a few things I can think of right now that I've seen from running my own stuff...

3. Zero difference b/t spark plug wires. MSD, Taylor, and Firecore...pick the ones that LOOK good to you, b/c they will run the same. I think the ignition market has more gimmick sales pitches than any other...well, maybe motor oil has more.



I think there is lots of re boxing there. That wire has uses for industrial stuff and I am sure the Ignition guys just pick out a wire they like and then build stuff from there. Whoever actually makes the wire is probably way larger than MSD or Taylor or FireCore.

I bought some summit branded cut to fit stuff for my coil near plug setup. $43 nice quality wire that has to be made by Taylor or whoever makes Taylor's stuff. The boot style, wire color, and feel sure feel like Taylor or whomever makes wire for Taylor.

Note: I am no expert so nobody get upset because its just my observation lol


I went from Taylors to Firecore. Zero difference in performance but the Firecore fit is PERFECT out of the box! Very happy with those wires for that reason alone.


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: GY3] #2735308
01/21/20 03:32 PM
01/21/20 03:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,005
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
master
Bad340fish  Offline
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Posts: 8,005
Tulsa OK
Originally Posted by GY3
Originally Posted by Bad340fish
Originally Posted by an8sec70cuda
Just a few things I can think of right now that I've seen from running my own stuff...

3. Zero difference b/t spark plug wires. MSD, Taylor, and Firecore...pick the ones that LOOK good to you, b/c they will run the same. I think the ignition market has more gimmick sales pitches than any other...well, maybe motor oil has more.



I think there is lots of re boxing there. That wire has uses for industrial stuff and I am sure the Ignition guys just pick out a wire they like and then build stuff from there. Whoever actually makes the wire is probably way larger than MSD or Taylor or FireCore.

I bought some summit branded cut to fit stuff for my coil near plug setup. $43 nice quality wire that has to be made by Taylor or whoever makes Taylor's stuff. The boot style, wire color, and feel sure feel like Taylor or whomever makes wire for Taylor.

Note: I am no expert so nobody get upset because its just my observation lol


I went from Taylors to Firecore. Zero difference in performance but the Firecore fit is PERFECT out of the box! Very happy with those wires for that reason alone.


There is no doubt they pump out some nice stuff. But the ready made kits for small block Mopars with GM LS Truck coils is pretty slim haha.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: tboomer] #2735311
01/21/20 03:38 PM
01/21/20 03:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566
Texas
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RustyM Offline
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Texas
Your welcome.
Its a 65 plymouth belvedere if that helps.
Guys on the board have really helped us with chassis and other areas.
we also added a 1200 twinblade and Dom ( Thumpercarbs ) has certainly been a factor in improving the car.
If i can get this Duster done, see what it does and its basically the same ideas from the op- simple, strong, low maintenance stuff that just works.

Imho: best single item anyone can buy is a af meter with built in data logger so you can see your afr for the whole run on a computer screen.
We build cars here and install them as standard equipment - customer has an engine problem i can pull the last logs and see rpm, afr, vacuum and those three certainly help with diagnosis .
Race cars: even with classes that don't allow taking data, one can get on top of things during "test n tune " and its just charting weather after that because you know where you are.

To date- every car i have tuned with one i have made faster, its one of those 'best hp per dollar " deals to me.
Aem makes a nice little single unit that works very well.
imho

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2735584
01/22/20 01:07 PM
01/22/20 01:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
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Las Vegas
Interesting replies here, in terms of what some see and not "worth it" versus what others results have been. I think a caveat to the question should be what is the intended purpose of the engine and race program. I certainly will approach a 10 second bracket build differently that a heads up car. I think this is a VERY valid argument to be made. Yes we still approach the 10 second bracket build with the same professionalism but there are things you simply DO NOT need to do to build something that will live in that world that you absolutely MUST DO in a heads up deal. Intended purpose and goals is what matter. Having said that round is round, flat is flat and that will never change. Quality machine work is always important no matter the level. And often times is the difference between that 500" Indy motor that runs mid 10's vs the one that runs mid 9's with basically the same components. There is power in things as simple as a valve job. Properly matched components in another issue that I see a lot of. Lastly I don't think most people who are looking to get everything out of a combo are willing to pout in the time and testing it takes to separate themselves from the rest.

As for what I've seen work in terms of performance or longevity, most have been mentioned. Center counter weight cranks, proper lifter location and angle, bigger cam cores, hipped blocks/heads, smaller ring pack, lighter/stronger pistons, valvetrain CONTROL, cylinder head development(this NEVER ends), intake evolution(also NEVER ends), more compression ESPECIALLY in aluminum blocks(numbers that most we be scared of), oil control, oil pressure, oil viscosities, carburetion(see heads and intake) are just a few of the things I have seen that make a difference. Not even to get into torque converters, low friction transmission and ratios, low friction third members and =gear treatments and fluids, low friction bearings in the drivetrain, chassis tuning etc etc


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2735614
01/22/20 02:53 PM
01/22/20 02:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205
New York
polyspheric Offline
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New York
The same things do not apply equally to every engine, or even engine type.
Useful stuff also varies widely as to benefit per dollar spent.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: polyspheric] #2735638
01/22/20 04:30 PM
01/22/20 04:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,003
Shelby Twp. Mi
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Shelby Twp. Mi
Back in the days when dyno's or data acq weren't as available. Footbraking I've seen alot out of carburetors. specifically tuning them to the application. One item i feel gets overlooked is directing cold air into the carb cleanly. Not many believe me but we saw on a car i tuned about 3mph and.15 immediate reduction in ET going from a 6pac scoop to a bigger 'pro' scoop that was placed better irt the carb and clean air. That made us realize, there was more in the 60ft thereafter and gained more. Went from mid-high 10's into the lower 10's solidly. SOME of you get lucky occasionally and things fall in-line but, if they don't most people arent willing to find what SHOULD be there in 'performance'. That said, some bracket guys i know of that make big number of passes usually have there stuff sorted-out pretty good more likely because they are 'doing' things rather than talking about the theory.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: HardcoreB] #2735768
01/23/20 08:32 AM
01/23/20 08:32 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,825
NW Indiana
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fbs63 Offline
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NW Indiana
Happy valvetrain, good sealing short block and heads, convertor and chassis package. I think the most important thing is working with what you have. Make one change at a time. Too many racers change 3 things at once and never really know what change made the pick up or loss. Data systems take the guesswork out of it. And I personally think engine dyno sessions are well worth the money. Gives you a baseline for everything.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: fbs63] #2735792
01/23/20 10:14 AM
01/23/20 10:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 310
Northeast Indiana
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73DAD Offline
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Northeast Indiana
Glyptal or other coatings in engines for oil drainback. Anybody ever test to see if there is a significant difference?

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: sasquatch] #2735891
01/23/20 05:36 PM
01/23/20 05:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,417
Martinsville, IN
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Posts: 1,417
Martinsville, IN
Originally Posted by sasquatch
Best bang for the buck is Take Weight out of the car, followed by take more weight out of the car, and finally remove weight from the car......


And lets be honest sometimes taking weight out of the car means taking weight off of us.

Last edited by cdwmotorsports; 01/23/20 05:36 PM.

eBay-cdwmotorsports
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: 73DAD] #2735913
01/23/20 07:50 PM
01/23/20 07:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,176
East Coast
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East Coast
Originally Posted by 73DAD
Glyptal or other coatings in engines for oil drainback. Anybody ever test to see if there is a significant difference?

I use to do that a lot. One build had the Glyptol come off in sheets. I'm very particular about the metal prep before painting the inside. There is such a thing as oil impregnating the iron. Found this on other industrial iron that I had painted in the past. I now remove all the foundry flashing and prep whatever I can to make the cast iron as smooth as possible. Prep time vs the price of Glyptol is worth it.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2735921
01/23/20 08:25 PM
01/23/20 08:25 PM
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Posts: 1,110
Usa
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Usa
I had the exact opposite affect as others in regards to hood scoops and sealing it to the carb. I lost my WO scoop at Quaker City one night, next round broke out by (if I recall) .08 off the gas, running an ET that was unusual for the car. What I figured was the scoop was catching more air than the car could consume and was acting as a sail.


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Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: A39Coronet] #2735948
01/23/20 10:15 PM
01/23/20 10:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,141
junction city oregon
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viperblue72 Offline
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junction city oregon
I don’t have much to add here but am trying to learn. I’m most confused by camshaft lsa and what works best. For a street car with 3500 stall vs race car with 5000?! What has worked best? Also curious about overcamming a motor with small heads for the cubes. What works?

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: viperblue72] #2736077
01/24/20 11:54 AM
01/24/20 11:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,629
Oakland, MI
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dizuster Offline
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Oakland, MI
The things that continually surprises me on camshafts are:

1) How much more important duration is than lift on the cam. Getting the duration right, for the CID and headflow, is way more important then squeezing every .001" of lift out of the cam.

2) How much more important duration is than the lobe profile itself. Even when we talk about "Best lobe profiles"... If the motor combo wants a 260@.050" duration cam, worrying about which lobe profile you're going to use at 250@.050" won't do you any good at all!

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dizuster] #2736114
01/24/20 01:20 PM
01/24/20 01:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,701
Portage,michigan
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Portage,michigan
Biggest changes i have consistently seen always involve heads and cam matched nicely, along with torque convertor.
Such changes can often result in huge gains.
Last time i saw such big changes was with current car.
Stock shortblock 360 with factory a mile in the hole slugs, 750 carb, 4.10 gear, comp cams generic flat tappet 280 ish advertized cam, stock eddie heads( looked over and checked before use.
This combo what was in my current car when i bought it.
Took it to the track on a good air day, 12.20’s at 108-109

Took heads off, whacked 40 thou off, had them mildly ported in quickie single evening type job, installed a known good 950 carb i had, installed Howards flat tappet closer to what i thought would make more power, and returned to the track with just those mods......
Milled and lightly ported heads, cam swap, carb swap
11.20’s at almost 119 after little tuning....in good air
Good heads, matching cam, good carb, bit more compression...
Full second and 10 mph
Same gears, vert, headers, weight, etc, etc


69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8

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