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Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: moparx] #2734432
01/19/20 11:21 AM
01/19/20 11:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,185
...in Florida on a permanent S...
Doc Fiberglass Offline
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,185
...in Florida on a permanent S...
Originally Posted by moparx
hoping i cam get my charger out this year, first time since 2007.
hoping i can crack the mid 11's with .030 over 440, 11.5:1 RPM heads, 3.91/29" tire. [or close biggrin]
beer


1/8 mile ? .... whistling wave shruggy Santa4

beer

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: DaveRS23] #2734446
01/19/20 11:35 AM
01/19/20 11:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 171
Sterling Heights, MI
John_T_Brown Offline
member
John_T_Brown  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 171
Sterling Heights, MI
Words of wisdom from a Super Stock racer... Make your best LOW friction short block assembly, choose your best roller cam for your cylinder head flow rate, then hang an induction system that is not a torque limiting device (headers included). After all is done with the engine choose a converter that will flash between 6400 and 6800 rpm (done the data acquisition). REMEMBER this is Super Stock racing! The rest is low rotating mass components for the drivetrain. AND one final thing is the best shock program (shocks) money can buy for your budget that is monitored with data acquisition.

DATA IS YOUR FRIEND grin

3500# car, 400c.i. engine, 1.21 60' , 9.20's



If it ain't broke fix it anyway!
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: John_T_Brown] #2734468
01/19/20 12:09 PM
01/19/20 12:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,145
MI
6
68shifter Offline
super stock
68shifter  Offline
super stock
6

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,145
MI
Plug wires-I’ve has MSD, Ultra40’s and Firecore over the years. Each supposedly better than the last and never have I seen one bit of difference. I’ve always disliked the MSD’s and how they don’t “click” on as good. But never changed any et.

Good clutch-screw the torque converter.

10deg locks vs 7deg locks. Last time I had the heads freshened he was all about I think going from 10 to 7. Spent a bunch on ti retainers and locks. The time before that I could have swore he wanted it the other way. I don’t remember. But I have never seen a change in lash, et or anything else from one to the other. Heck if I know.

My M/T 3074s were worth .03 in 60’ over Phoenix. A little lighter and seem to last a little better.

I bought a used 1250 Doninator years ago from a local guy. Threw a kit in it and away I went. Sent it to Pro-Systems couple years later. $600 bucks or whatever it was. No difference. Maybe idled a little cleaner. I still wonder how much it all matters in a stick car that’s never below 5k but I’m not smart either.


68' Barracuda (4 speed) 64' Savoy (4 speed) 65' Satellite (girl tranny)
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: 68shifter] #2734573
01/19/20 04:48 PM
01/19/20 04:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,689
Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda Offline
master
340Cuda  Offline
master

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,689
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Well in my opinion its all about a combination so there are many roads to success.

In my experience good results have come from high compression, lightweight engine components, vacuum pumps and certainly not least quality torque converters and transmissions.

I also feel that strong pushrods, quality rocker arms and with a roller cam stout spring pressures are important.

While it can be expensive I think Andy F has shown that money spent with folks like Wilson can be rewarded.

Of course all of this would be tempered by what do you want to do? Just go fast, run brackets, indexes, small tire, NHRA classes etc.

Good luck with it!

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: 340Cuda] #2734583
01/19/20 05:10 PM
01/19/20 05:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 802
Idabel,Oklahoma
G
Gary Robbins Offline
super stock
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 802
Idabel,Oklahoma

For me it was going from B1 original's to the PSO head along with a 55MM .900 lift cam...While I gained around 100hp thru out the RPM range it ran right by my 20yr old chassis capabilities...We have to take so much power out to be able to get down the track that we're still stuck in the high 4.70 to low .80's and need to be in the mid 60's...So now it looks like chassis prison and another lost season !!

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: Gary Robbins] #2734594
01/19/20 05:32 PM
01/19/20 05:32 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,056
Cleveland Ohio
10secGTX Offline
top fuel
10secGTX  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,056
Cleveland Ohio
I have not seen anyone or I missed it, talk about Carbon Fiber Drive shafts and or Polished finish on the rear gears, what if any did they pick up.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: 10secGTX] #2734604
01/19/20 05:59 PM
01/19/20 05:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,361
DFW
M
mr_340 Offline
master
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,361
DFW
Originally Posted by 10secGTX
I have not seen anyone or I missed it, talk about Carbon Fiber Drive shafts and or Polished finish on the rear gears, what if any did they pick up.


There was a post on Classracer about lightweight ring gears and the finishes came up.

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=75119


Floyd Lippencott IV
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: BradH] #2734658
01/19/20 08:55 PM
01/19/20 08:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,169
Minnesota
Hemi_Joel Offline
master
Hemi_Joel  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,169
Minnesota
Originally Posted by BradH
The OP mentioned straightening the lifter bores... Assuming he means bushing them along with blueprinting their locations, I understand the oil control benefits. But is there a measurable performance improvement?"

EDIT: This is of interest to me because my current block has had the lifter bores corrected bushed, but it's "tired" and the cylinders couldn't take anything more than a re-hone during the last rebuild. I've got a freshly machined block to replace it, but the one job the shop that did the work wasn't equipped to do was the lifter bores. Not sure if I should plan to haul it somewhere else to get that done, or build it as is.


Well, it's supposed to be worth 20 hp if you believe THIS DYNO TEST


[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]
31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum
RS23J71
RS27J77
RP23J71
RO23J71
WM21J8A
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: pittsburghracer] #2734770
01/20/20 07:47 AM
01/20/20 07:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,593
On the bumper
N
n20mstr Offline
master
n20mstr  Offline
master
N

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,593
On the bumper
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Lots of guys like me to spend big money for little gain. Again 95% of us are bracket racers or street n strip guys so thin ring packs, lightweight components, belt drives, and vacuum pumps show little gains. A 5.00 lock ring on your distributor works wonders and is surely cheaper than other options out there. As far as deck plates I personally don’t use them. How long does a dead prefectly machined block in the machine shop stay perfect when the crank is bolted in place with 8 rods and spinning 7200 rpm. Now throw in the “heat factor). What does the block do when at Racing temps. Do you think it stays perfect like in the machine shop. Your guess is as good as mine but I’m thinking no. I like spending around 1000.00 to machine a block and balance an assembly at a shop I trust rather than crazy money making the shop owner rich. If it makes you sleep better at night then go ahead and spend big money. If you are sitting at home because you can’t afford the tricks, maybe it’s time to stop believing the ragazines written by guys that get paid to suggest you spend your hard earned money.


My Indy Maxx block has never had as much pan vac as it has after BES honed it. And he told me to run it as cold as possible 100* if I can at the starting line


....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: Gary Robbins] #2734771
01/20/20 07:48 AM
01/20/20 07:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,593
On the bumper
N
n20mstr Offline
master
n20mstr  Offline
master
N

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,593
On the bumper
Originally Posted by Gary Robbins

For me it was going from B1 original's to the PSO head along with a 55MM .900 lift cam...While I gained around 100hp thru out the RPM range it ran right by my 20yr old chassis capabilities...We have to take so much power out to be able to get down the track that we're still stuck in the high 4.70 to low .80's and need to be in the mid 60's...So now it looks like chassis prison and another lost season !!


let me borrow the engine....LOL
why cant your ladder bars handle the power??


....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2734800
01/20/20 09:08 AM
01/20/20 09:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
B
BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
BradH  Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
B

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
Originally Posted by BradH
The OP mentioned straightening the lifter bores... Assuming he means bushing them along with blueprinting their locations, I understand the oil control benefits. But is there a measurable performance improvement?"

EDIT: This is of interest to me because my current block has had the lifter bores corrected bushed, but it's "tired" and the cylinders couldn't take anything more than a re-hone during the last rebuild. I've got a freshly machined block to replace it, but the one job the shop that did the work wasn't equipped to do was the lifter bores. Not sure if I should plan to haul it somewhere else to get that done, or build it as is.


Well, it's supposed to be worth 20 hp if you believe THIS DYNO TEST

Barton has claimed HP increases from it, too. My first thought after reading the article was... how far off was the lifter bore alignment to have made that much difference? Regardless, thanks for the link.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: BradH] #2734865
01/20/20 11:34 AM
01/20/20 11:34 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 34,224
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Online content
I Win
Cab_Burge  Online Content
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 34,224
Bend,OR USA

Barton has claimed HP increases from it, too. My first thought after reading the article was... how far off was the lifter bore alignment to have made that much difference? Regardless, thanks for the link. [/quote] iagree work


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: pittsburghracer] #2734877
01/20/20 12:03 PM
01/20/20 12:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,189
Between a rock & a hard place
C
cudadoug Offline
master
cudadoug  Offline
master
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,189
Between a rock & a hard place
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Lots of guys like me to spend big money for little gain. Again 95% of us are bracket racers or street n strip guys so thin ring packs, lightweight components, belt drives, and vacuum pumps show little gains. A 5.00 lock ring on your distributor works wonders and is surely cheaper than other options out there. As far as deck plates I personally don’t use them. How long does a dead prefectly machined block in the machine shop stay perfect when the crank is bolted in place with 8 rods and spinning 7200 rpm. Now throw in the “heat factor). What does the block do when at Racing temps. Do you think it stays perfect like in the machine shop. Your guess is as good as mine but I’m thinking no. I like spending around 1000.00 to machine a block and balance an assembly at a shop I trust rather than crazy money making the shop owner rich. If it makes you sleep better at night then go ahead and spend big money. If you are sitting at home because you can’t afford the tricks, maybe it’s time to stop believing the ragazines written by guys that get paid to suggest you spend your hard earned money.


The lack of a deck plate use surprises me. I thought that was standard in any HP build. The difference is plate honing cost is minimal in my area, so why not make every effort to maintain block integrity?

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: cudadoug] #2734879
01/20/20 12:08 PM
01/20/20 12:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,096
Left Coast
B
BobR Offline
master
BobR  Offline
master
B

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,096
Left Coast
Boost. Never fails.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: Dragula] #2734882
01/20/20 12:11 PM
01/20/20 12:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,189
Between a rock & a hard place
C
cudadoug Offline
master
cudadoug  Offline
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C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,189
Between a rock & a hard place
Originally Posted by Dragula
Originally Posted by TRENDZ
This most likely falls outside of the original topic, but there is no single more important part to having a fast car, than the torque converter.


It is definitely not outside the topic.....Many combos are held back by the wrong or bad torque converter. This is especially critical to the folks that run a glide....Typically you know when you have the right converter, but not so the other way around.


YEP! Seen many combos that don't run as good as they should due to the converter. And vice-versa.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: cudadoug] #2734883
01/20/20 12:12 PM
01/20/20 12:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,111
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Offline
"Little"John

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,111
PA.
Originally Posted by cudadoug
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Lots of guys like me to spend big money for little gain. Again 95% of us are bracket racers or street n strip guys so thin ring packs, lightweight components, belt drives, and vacuum pumps show little gains. A 5.00 lock ring on your distributor works wonders and is surely cheaper than other options out there. As far as deck plates I personally don’t use them. How long does a dead prefectly machined block in the machine shop stay perfect when the crank is bolted in place with 8 rods and spinning 7200 rpm. Now throw in the “heat factor). What does the block do when at Racing temps. Do you think it stays perfect like in the machine shop. Your guess is as good as mine but I’m thinking no. I like spending around 1000.00 to machine a block and balance an assembly at a shop I trust rather than crazy money making the shop owner rich. If it makes you sleep better at night then go ahead and spend big money. If you are sitting at home because you can’t afford the tricks, maybe it’s time to stop believing the ragazines written by guys that get paid to suggest you spend your hard earned money.


The lack of a deck plate use surprises me. I thought that was standard in any HP build. The difference is plate honing cost is minimal in my area, so why not make every effort to maintain block integrity?






I Feel my junk runs pretty good without it. I guess the R3 block in my Duster now has been bored with deck plates but not by me, and when I rebuild it over the winter I will be hand honing it myself. My machine shop that I use probably doesn’t even have a small block Mopar deck plate. I never bothered to ask.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: ou812] #2734944
01/20/20 02:30 PM
01/20/20 02:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,189
Between a rock & a hard place
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cudadoug Offline
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cudadoug  Offline
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C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,189
Between a rock & a hard place
Originally Posted by ou812
I sealed my 6PK scoop to my carb... worth a tenth and 1.5mph. Removed it and jetted down, lost everywhere...jetted back up and gained some, sealed and gained all back. Jetted up from there with it sealed and lost.
Working on the car, specifically the front and rear suspension, and launch were the biggest gains.


Working ON THE CAR can be huge!

Once upon a time...

Roller cammed 440 in a back half E body. 10.80's @ 124. Fresh trans and tuned up converter, new HAL (now QA1) adjustable shocks on all four corners, opening valve lash .010: 10.40's @ 127 were the result. Added a rear tire that was 1.5" bigger in roll out: 10.30's @ 128, best of 10.36 @ 129.

10.80's to 10.30's and other than the valve lash, never touched the motor, or the tune up.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: pittsburghracer] #2735200
01/21/20 08:54 AM
01/21/20 08:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
B
BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
BradH  Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
B

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Originally Posted by cudadoug
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
... As far as deck plates I personally don’t use them. How long does a dead prefectly machined block in the machine shop stay perfect when the crank is bolted in place with 8 rods and spinning 7200 rpm. Now throw in the “heat factor). What does the block do when at Racing temps. Do you think it stays perfect like in the machine shop. Your guess is as good as mine but I’m thinking no.


The lack of a deck plate use surprises me. I thought that was standard in any HP build. The difference is plate honing cost is minimal in my area, so why not make every effort to maintain block integrity?



I Feel my junk runs pretty good without it. I guess the R3 block in my Duster now has been bored with deck plates but not by me, and when I rebuild it over the winter I will be hand honing it myself. My machine shop that I use probably doesn’t even have a small block Mopar deck plate. I never bothered to ask.

When I took my 4.380" RB block in to get a touch-up hone before the last reassembly, the machinist who does my block work now told me he tried to do it w/ a torque plate first, but it distorted the cylinders too much. That surprised me because when the block was bored to 4.380" by another shop (who, even if still in business, I won't deal with) I specifically paid to have the block deck-honed... and the receipt states clearly that I paid the additional charge for it.

I told this to the machinist and his response was: "Well, he may have put a torque plate on it... but he sure as He11 didn't tighten it down." This guy prepped my other block, which is a 4.375" finished-honed w/ a torque plate. And I've been wondering even before this thread started whether the 4.375" block done "right" will actually make any more power than the "tired" 4.380" block w/ out-of-round bores and excessive piston-to-wall clearances. I'm not sure I'd bet on even a 10 HP improvement, but a scientific A-B comparison test ain't gonna happen, much as I'd like to know.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: BradH] #2735219
01/21/20 10:00 AM
01/21/20 10:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,671
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
I Live Here
an8sec70cuda  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,671
Marion, South Carolina [><]
Just a few things I can think of right now that I've seen from running my own stuff...

1. A vacuum pump only helps w/ oil leaks on a mid 9 sec NA 572. Saw zero performance difference, but it did stop the little annoying oil leaks. Had low tension rings in it too. Might work better on other combos, but I certainly don't think it's worth it.

2. I ran my 572 hemi for 13 years and freshened it up a couple times in that time frame. Obviously it got more and more worn at every freshen up...speaking about the pistons and bores. A simple dingle berry hone and re-ring and it ran just as fast as it did when it was fresh. Even though the wall clearance had grown .003" and had .002" taper and out of round.

3. Zero difference b/t spark plug wires. MSD, Taylor, and Firecore...pick the ones that LOOK good to you, b/c they will run the same. I think the ignition market has more gimmick sales pitches than any other...well, maybe motor oil has more.

4. A couple of my engines that ran very well for what they were, weren't honed w/ torque plates. My hemi was done w/ one and I recently bought my own plate b/c no one around here had one. Not saying they aren't a good idea, but I have no idea what it's worth power-wise and a lot of folks seem to think it's worth 200 hp, lol. I know on my hemi, the bore is out of round .001" without the plate bolted down. See my 2nd example above for thoughts on that.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda street car...8.91 at 150.5 mph w/ 4.10s, 8.97 at 152.5 mph w/ 3.54s so far
'69 road runner 440 w/ Indy SRs
'69 road runner 440-6, 4 speed...Dad's ride
'71 Demon 340 resto project
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax...toy hauler
'16 Grand Caravan SXT...baby hauler
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: BradH] #2735220
01/21/20 10:05 AM
01/21/20 10:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,118
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
I Live Here
ZIPPY  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,118
S.E. Michigan
It's really cool to see this kind of transparency re: hand honing and even ball honing, as it matches up to a few discussions
I've had with folks I consider smarter than me.



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