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Race Engine reality, what works #2734187
01/18/20 01:24 PM
01/18/20 01:24 PM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline OP
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So lets talk about what works. What building parameters or "tricks" actually made your car go quicker. Lets limit this discussion to engine build options. Machining , accuracy of clearance, ratios, weights. Did that trick hone job pick you up? Straightening the lifter bores. Perfect piston ring grooves? Dead on rocker geometry? Every valve spring the exact same pressure? Bearing clearance to the .000X? Thin/light ring pack? Rod ratio. Light weight components? All this stuff is that it gets debated often in different discussions. Not talking about comparing to poor sloppy machining. More of good average stuff vs the best. My experience is if the above areas are decent the amount of improvement is next to nothing. My current motor went from .043" rings to .9mm, ran exactly the same. Then a new crank. It was 5lbs lighter. Ran exactly the same. Looking for real world track results.
Doug

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2734198
01/18/20 01:43 PM
01/18/20 01:43 PM
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United Socialist States of Ame...
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Great topic Doug! Might I suggest that the topic applies to somewhat current builds within the last few years? wave


The end is near.....
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2734203
01/18/20 01:59 PM
01/18/20 01:59 PM
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Washington
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madscientist Offline
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LOL. Most guys don't test correctly.

Most guys don't dyno stuff B2B where you take out many variables.

Most guys have a chassis that is already at its saturation point for power. Any more and it just flexes away any added power.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2734211
01/18/20 02:22 PM
01/18/20 02:22 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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The biggest changes I’ve seen usually revolve around some component that’s either not working right, or isn’t a good match for the rest of the combo.

The biggest differences I’ve seen have come from these items....... but not at all consistently.
For each instance where I saw a big change....... there would be dozens where it did nothing.

- cams
- carbs
- intake manifolds
- swapping to a tunnel ram
- vacuum pumps
- headers


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: fast68plymouth] #2734226
01/18/20 03:18 PM
01/18/20 03:18 PM
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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Years ago, sealing the carb to the hood. This was worth 1-3mph and +.1 in ET....Nobody believes me on that, but it is true.

For me this 2019, it was upgraded rocker arms and push rods....Was wrecking pushrods and rockers like candy at .680 lift with our new 400/512 combo. Went to Comp SS rockers with more offset on the intakes, and Manton series 5 extreme push rods....Wow...Night and day difference. Never even took the valve covers off this year.

Was using the 440source rockers and pushrods, which worked well for 6 years, but now we are in the low 6's in the 1/8th and finding we needed better parts.

Also, the other biggest gain we netted was working with Thumper on the carb setup and I ported the crap out of the manifold....netted .22 total and 2mph

Last years big gain was calling Hoosier and getting the right slicks for our car....How about a 1.31 60ft!

A while before that, sealed the carb to the hood.....

Things that netted us nothing, but we like anyways:
Firecore wires over Procomp generic ones
Light weight crank....6lbs lighter
Switching from a 440/512 to 400/512
increasing compression from 10.75 to 13
Front facing hood scoop
Trans brake
PPP shifter
Magnefuel 500 pump over a 275


Last edited by Dragula; 02/09/20 01:28 PM.

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2734227
01/18/20 03:21 PM
01/18/20 03:21 PM
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Milwaukee WI
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TRENDZ Offline
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This most likely falls outside of the original topic, but there is no single more important part to having a fast car, than the torque converter.


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: TRENDZ] #2734228
01/18/20 03:30 PM
01/18/20 03:30 PM
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Posts: 12,379
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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Originally Posted by TRENDZ
This most likely falls outside of the original topic, but there is no single more important part to having a fast car, than the torque converter.


It is definitely not outside the topic.....Many combos are held back by the wrong or bad torque convertor. This is especially critical to the folks that run a glide....Typically you know when you have the right convertor, but not so the other way around.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: Dragula] #2734236
01/18/20 03:57 PM
01/18/20 03:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Online work
"Little"John
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Lots of guys like me to spend big money for little gain. Again 95% of us are bracket racers or street n strip guys so thin ring packs, lightweight components, belt drives, and vacuum pumps show little gains. A 5.00 lock ring on your distributor works wonders and is surely cheaper than other options out there. As far as deck plates I personally don’t use them. How long does a dead prefectly machined block in the machine shop stay perfect when the crank is bolted in place with 8 rods and spinning 7200 rpm. Now throw in the “heat factor). What does the block do when at Racing temps. Do you think it stays perfect like in the machine shop. Your guess is as good as mine but I’m thinking no. I like spending around 1000.00 to machine a block and balance an assembly at a shop I trust rather than crazy money making the shop owner rich. If it makes you sleep better at night then go ahead and spend big money. If you are sitting at home because you can’t afford the tricks, maybe it’s time to stop believing the ragazines written by guys that get paid to suggest you spend your hard earned money.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2734237
01/18/20 03:58 PM
01/18/20 03:58 PM
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Massillon, Ohio
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cudatom Offline
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Doug, for me what I have found out going with better parts was longevity of the combination. It didn't necessarily pick up many horsepower or run a better number at the strip. However I had less failures.

Now regarding machine work I've always tried to pick shops that have a quality reputation. The reason being same point as above. Quality machine work and parts tends to make a combination last longer. I'm a bracket racer I'm not trying to gain every 10,000th of a second I want a quality combination that is consistent. Yes even good parts fail and good shops make mistakes but over the past 40 years I found that when doing this I spend less time working on my combination.


Ok
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: cudatom] #2734250
01/18/20 04:36 PM
01/18/20 04:36 PM
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Pattison Texas
CSK Offline
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To be Honest the 512 Low deck I built makes about 150 HP MORE than I really thought it would make, Hrdro roller, dingleberry hone job, 440 source heads ported by me using a toy flow bench [Super Flow 110 ] ,wide ring gap on second ring, 9.7 to one compression, most of the ? in dvw's thread is more about longevity of the build IMOP. all that said ,, I love my Dodge smile Sorry Im sharing in the race section, my junk is Street & sometimes strip. The LARGEST gain I have done was from tuning, also getting rid of a baffled muffler & going to a straight through muffin

Last edited by csk; 01/18/20 05:26 PM.

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: CSK] #2734256
01/18/20 05:09 PM
01/18/20 05:09 PM
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aotearoa
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one thing I did to my stock block stroker that makes it live & gives me piece of mind as I race it, is bushing the lifter bores. Oil pressure is now always good where as before, once it got hot, the pressure at idle was almost nothing. I used a diy lifter bore bushing kit & honestly, when youre doing rounds & hot lapping it, oil pressure no lower that 25psi at idle keeps me smiling with a solid roller cam.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: dvw] #2734260
01/18/20 05:21 PM
01/18/20 05:21 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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What didn't gain me much if anything was removing my 12.5:1 340 and installing a fresh 10.5:1 408 with W2's. It was seat of the pants only, but that 340 sure felt quicker than that stroker in the early days of it. converting from SS springs to caltracs, switching 4.10 gear for a 4.30 gear with a loose vert. and replacing my 950 holley for a 1100 Dominator when i had a small block. I never made any big gains with one component change. It was a bunch of small gains that worked in the end. Switching from a 10" 3500 vert to a 8"5200 vert made a gain. Switching to Hoosier QTP from the old M/T drag radials made a gain. I now use the M/T ET street R and its better than the Hoosier QTP. Installing a crank trigger made the timing rock solid, so it was a gain in accurate timing. I don't remember seeing any gain at the track, but accurate steady timing is always a plus.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: mopar dave] #2734271
01/18/20 05:49 PM
01/18/20 05:49 PM
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I hope to see what adding over 2 points of compression does this year going from flat tops to dome pistons. I run alcohol so it’s no added cost to try it and the deal on the Pistons was to good to turn down. My last Edelbrock headed 408 ran 9.70’s so I’m looking forward to the results

B22BC93B-3669-49CB-B1E7-7194CC2C5C56.jpeg3706EC75-917A-4C32-92D7-FB7BA9BAB311.jpeg

1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: pittsburghracer] #2734274
01/18/20 06:11 PM
01/18/20 06:11 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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I was surprised to see Dragula found nothing in a 2.25 point increase in compression. I increased mine 1.5 points. Hope I gain something, but will see.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: TRENDZ] #2734275
01/18/20 06:14 PM
01/18/20 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TRENDZ
This most likely falls outside of the original topic, but there is no single more important part to having a fast car, than the torque converter.


I strongly second this one.

Last edited by Harry's Taxi 2; 01/18/20 06:19 PM.

'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.

NOS-used when losing since 1940.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: CSK] #2734277
01/18/20 06:20 PM
01/18/20 06:20 PM
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GY3 Online content
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I have a lighter Molnar rotating assembly (mainly rods, crank weight was the same) and metric pistons rings. I did it mainly because other parts were close to the same $ and it has to be easier on the block.

Again, street/strip brigade here.

Last edited by GY3; 01/18/20 06:23 PM.

'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: Harry's Taxi 2] #2734280
01/18/20 06:32 PM
01/18/20 06:32 PM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Originally Posted by Harry's Taxi 2
Originally Posted by TRENDZ
This most likely falls outside of the original topic, but there is no single more important part to having a fast car, than the torque converter.


I strongly second this one.

Same here, even for a dual purpose car. Went from too tight to too loose to just right to finally improve the 60-ft and reign in the slippage on the big end. The difference between the last two converters was .2 and 2 MPH, all the result of reduced slippage.

Getting a carburetor that's "happy" with the rest of the combination has shown solid improvements, too. Doesn't have to be any bigger or make more HP if you can improve the shift recovery.

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: CSK] #2734282
01/18/20 06:44 PM
01/18/20 06:44 PM
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Best bang for the buck is Take Weight out of the car, followed by take more weight out of the car, and finally remove weight from the car......

Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: BradH] #2734283
01/18/20 06:45 PM
01/18/20 06:45 PM
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Sydney,Australia
tex013 Offline
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Biggest gain for me was cylinder heads .
From hand prepped out of box , to CNC (stock port) to current TF270
This was tried on my 440 and 505 RB motors . Solid .25 gain with TF270 over CNC source . Which is about what i expected .
This is from engine only , converter also made gains seperatelly .


Tex

Last edited by tex013; 01/18/20 08:50 PM.

New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
Re: Race Engine reality, what works [Re: Dragula] #2734291
01/18/20 07:35 PM
01/18/20 07:35 PM
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Mooresburg, Tn
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'72CudaRacer Offline
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Originally Posted by Dragula
For me, it was upgraded rocker arms and push rods....Was wrecking pushrods and rockers like candy at .680 lift with our new 400/512 combo. Went to Comp SS rockers with more offset on the intakes, and Manton series 5 extreme push rods....Wow...Night and day difference. Never even took the valve covers off this year.

This for me also! I wasn't even looking for an improvement when replaced my rocker arms last winter. I was running the old MP blue rocker arms (alum roller, same as the Crane Gold rockers) but I broke another one at the last race of the season. I had a couple of spares, but when I started looking at the broken one and compared it to the other 3 that I had broken in the past few years, they were all broken in the same place. Upon closer inspection (w/ flashlight & magnifying glass) of the other rockers still on the engine, I found that 7 others were in various stages of cracking in the exact same place. At that point, I ordered a new set of Hughes rockers, which also required new push rods (Smith Bros.), After setting up new rockers & push rods, I was extremely impressed by the roller pattern on the valve tip.
Fast forward to this season, I finally figured out that the car had picked up WELL over a tenth of a second, closer to 2 tenths. At first, I just thought it was due to the weather, or track conditions or tire pressure or whatever, until I went to Clay City, Ky for the Mopar show in sept, and routinely ran low 10.30's (1/4 mile). I went back to my log book and found it was indeed running quicker than the last few years. Nothing else was changed on the car at all. Had to be the rockers & push rods??

Brian Dunnigan



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