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Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: BradH] #2733889
01/17/20 12:56 PM
01/17/20 12:56 PM
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BradH Offline OP
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More details re the above CAD diagrams for Hughes 1.6 BB rockers measurements taken w/ soft checking spring:

B - Std shaft location "low pivot geo"
- Sweep: 085” & centered
- T&D cup adjuster w/ 9.575" OAL pushrod
- 1st half cam lift (.2136) / valve lift .348 = 1.629
- 2nd half cam lift (.2136) / valve lift .332 = 1.554
- OA ratio = .680 / .4272 = 1.592; ratio change = -.075

D- B3RE shaft relocation for mid-lift geo at net .650"
- Sweep: 045” & slightly inboard of centered
- T&D cup adjuster w/ 9.795" OAL pushrod
- 1st half cam lift (.2136) / valve lift .339 = 1.587
- 2nd half cam lift (.2136) / valve lift .328 = 1.536
- OA ratio = .667 / .4272 = 1.561; ratio change = -.051

Estimated loaded ratio loss at peak lift based on prior measurements w/ 600# open load springs: ~ .05

'A' OA estimated loaded ratio ~ 1.54
'B' OA estimated loaded ratio ~ 1.51

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

In case anyone reads this the wrong way, I'm NOT "blaming" Hughes for this. Hughes' rockers were made for years by Probe Industries, and this is the same basic design that Probe had before Hughes started selling their rockers. When Probe quit -- or sold off -- its rocker business, I believe Hughes picked up Probe's tooling, etc., and has continued to make them using the same design.

Could Hughes redesign their rockers? Sure, if Dave & Co. thinks it's a problem. I'm guessing he doesn't, so they'll likely stay the same. I've run 'em successfully on a couple of builds, but I didn't understand the nature of their ratio / geometry "quirks" until I did all of my before & after checks w/ the B3RE kit. shruggy

Last edited by BradH; 01/17/20 01:08 PM.
Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: BradH] #2733891
01/17/20 12:57 PM
01/17/20 12:57 PM
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BradH Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by BradH
My last post on this subject for now...

Let me try this again...

I give up.

Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: BradH] #2733902
01/17/20 01:23 PM
01/17/20 01:23 PM
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BradH Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BradH
No, the reason why the Hughes rockers lose ratio with the geometry correction kit is due to the location & angle of the Hughes adjuster screws.

Pic of T&D 1.45" 1.60 ratio on left; Hughes 1.52" 1.60 ratio on right; difference in pushrod adjuster screw locations & angles very apparent, and all this factors into how the different designs "work" when installed in different configurations w/ respect to the valve & shaft relationships.

TD 1.45L x 1.60R_HE 1.52L x 1.60R.jpg
Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: BradH] #2733906
01/17/20 01:34 PM
01/17/20 01:34 PM
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BradH Offline OP
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In case Dave Hughes or one of his minions checks out this thread... "Look! I'm running Hughes rocker arms (old style intakes & new style exhausts) on my Victor heads!" laugh2

Seriously, I sold the T&Ds because they didn't get me the ratio increase I was looking for. The net lift between the two brands of "1.6" rockers as set up to run on my heads was virtually identical. scope

Hughes 1.6 rockers on Victor.jpg
Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: BradH] #2733907
01/17/20 01:41 PM
01/17/20 01:41 PM
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pittsburghracer Offline
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How much cam lift were you losing on the 1.55 rockers instead of the advertised 1.6 rockers. And how much ET do you think it was costing you in your street strip car?


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: pittsburghracer] #2733910
01/17/20 01:53 PM
01/17/20 01:53 PM
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BradH Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
How much cam lift were you losing on the 1.55 rockers instead of the advertised 1.6 rockers.

I'll let you reverse-engineer the answer from the following: .650" net lift w/ .018" lash and .433" lobe

Since you may be mathematically challenged, it's right about .020" net lift.

Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
And how much ET do you think it was costing you in your 3800#, 680 HP street/strip car?

Fixed... and I have no idea since my P O S hasn't made it back to the track w/ the new engine build, nor will the engine go back on the dyno before the car is running again. wrench

The other thing was I was expecting to use them in my spare engine build (fresh short block) that might also end up with a different cam. The new cam choice would be influenced by the net ratio vs the lift my valve springs can support, and the lower ratio than expected didn't fit w/ what I'd been considering.

How much do you think it would cost you in your... what did Ray call it... oh, yeah... tin can? tonguue

Last edited by BradH; 01/17/20 02:03 PM.
Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: BradH] #2733912
01/17/20 01:57 PM
01/17/20 01:57 PM
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BradH Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by BradH
My last post on this subject for now...

Let me try this again...

I give up.

hop

Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: BradH] #2733913
01/17/20 01:58 PM
01/17/20 01:58 PM
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pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
How much cam lift were you losing on the 1.55 rockers instead of the advertised 1.6 rockers.

I'll let you reverse-engineer the answer from the following: .650" net lift w/ .018" lash and .433" lobe

Since you may be mathematically challenged, it's right about .020" net lift.

Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
And how much ET do you think it was costing you in your 3800#, 680 HP street/strip car?

Fixed... and I have no idea since my P O S hasn't made it back to the track w/ the new engine build, nor will the engine go back on the dyno before the car is running again. wrench

How much do you think it would cost you in your... what did Ray call it... oh, yeah... tin can? tonguue



Hey don’t blame me because you own a fat car. Lmao 😂.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: pittsburghracer] #2734029
01/17/20 10:47 PM
01/17/20 10:47 PM
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dvw Offline
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So after all of this measuring , losing, gaining lift I ask. What was the difference at the track? Or was it never track tested?
Doug

Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: dvw] #2734034
01/17/20 11:08 PM
01/17/20 11:08 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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I've seen .001 to .003 gain or loss at the 1/4 mile tracks when tightening up the lash or loosening them up by .006 to .010 shruggy work
I tighten them up until it stops getting quicker and faster up scope

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 01/17/20 11:08 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: Cab_Burge] #2734081
01/18/20 09:17 AM
01/18/20 09:17 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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I seen the same thing with valve lash loops at the track. Minimal if any on the small block with a solid roller at .700" using a T&D rocker which Pittsburghracer now owns. With a victor head and 1.6 Harland Sharps just bolted on with lash and as the engine would run gave me these patterns. Not perfect, but doesn't look bad and just had the guides checked and giving an outstanding A+ no wear from Sanchez. So their not hurting anything anyway. I haven't done any measuring except for piston to valve clearance.

HS 2.jpg20170204_232635.jpg
Last edited by mopar dave; 01/18/20 09:20 AM.
Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: dvw] #2734095
01/18/20 10:12 AM
01/18/20 10:12 AM
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NW Indiana
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fbs63 Offline
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Originally Posted by dvw
So after all of this measuring , losing, gaining lift I ask. What was the difference at the track? Or was it never track tested?
Doug

This exactly!

All I'm saying is with the shaft spaced up and over like that there is NO way it stays still. ONLY way I would ever correct geometry would be to mill the stands off and make new ones that TOTALLY surround the shaft. W2's were a good example. I would bet some of your lift loss is from flex in the studs.

Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: mopar dave] #2734110
01/18/20 11:00 AM
01/18/20 11:00 AM
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pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
I seen the same thing with valve lash loops at the track. Minimal if any on the small block with a solid roller at .700" using a T&D rocker which Pittsburghracer now owns. With a victor head and 1.6 Harland Sharps just bolted on with lash and as the engine would run gave me these patterns. Not perfect, but doesn't look bad and just had the guides checked and giving an outstanding A+ no wear from Sanchez. So their not hurting anything anyway. I haven't done any measuring except for piston to valve clearance.






Man now I feel like I was ripped off. You advertised them as 1.6 rockers and now when I put them on this winter and take my Indy rockers off my “tin can” is going to be a DOG. I need a Lawyer. 1-800-slo-ride.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: fbs63] #2734112
01/18/20 11:07 AM
01/18/20 11:07 AM
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BradH Offline OP
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I stated above that the T&Ds were never tested on the dyno or the track. The engine was dynoed with the Hughes rockers and I purchased the T&Ds afterwards.

I measured the T&Ds and the Hughes as described above. I have a high level of confidence that my measurements are accurate given the context in which they were taken, from the repeatability of the #s, and the fact that the CAD simulations Mike Beachel ran only varied from my data by .002-.003" max lift.

The response I got from Sheldon at T&D was that they over-ratio their rockers; even my soft spring measurements showed this was not the case for my rockers. There's no geometry issue and no flex issue, it's what they measured.

Cab Burge didn't go into details, but mentioned seeing something similar with a single-shaft system he checked. Andy said T&D made a mistake where his 1.70 rockers measured 1.65 loaded; seems like they have made this mistake more than once. Regardless, there is a lack of consistency somewhere.

I asked my question because I wanted to know if what I found was typical of others' experiences. The answer appears to be "it depends."

You don't like my findings or disagree with my methods? No problem. However, coming up with your own -- rather than simply pi$$ing on mine -- would add more value.



Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: mopar dave] #2734114
01/18/20 11:15 AM
01/18/20 11:15 AM
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BradH Offline OP
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Dave, your sweep patterns look far more reasonable than the HS Victor pic I posted above. I wonder if there was a fulcrum distance reduction between the first rockers and yours. The ones I measured were even longer than the Hughes' 1.52". If yours are still off the heads, could you check the distance between the shaft pivot centerline and the roller tip centerline?

Last edited by BradH; 01/18/20 11:21 AM.
Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: pittsburghracer] #2734121
01/18/20 11:27 AM
01/18/20 11:27 AM
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BradH Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Hey don’t blame me because you own a fat car. Lmao 😂.

What's the tin can weigh, anyway? I was wondering if we switched engines whose car would pick up and whose would slow down. wink

Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: dvw] #2734123
01/18/20 11:31 AM
01/18/20 11:31 AM
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GY3 Offline
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Originally Posted by dvw
So after all of this measuring , losing, gaining lift I ask. What was the difference at the track? Or was it never track tested?
Doug


The Mental Masturbation Nationals! grin


Last edited by GY3; 01/18/20 01:43 PM.

'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: BradH] #2734131
01/18/20 11:57 AM
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pittsburghracer Offline
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Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Hey don’t blame me because you own a fat car. Lmao 😂.

What's the tin can weigh, anyway? I was wondering if we switched engines whose car would pick up and whose would slow down. wink



I’ll just say I’m a racer that races almost every week (7 months a year) at the track for the last 46 years or so. I have never raced a car that weights more than 3200 pounds as I want to go as fast as I can, on a budget, with zero tricks on fancy gadgets. It would be stupid for me to race a FAT car and I never will. If you want to line up, let’s go.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: GY3] #2734132
01/18/20 11:59 AM
01/18/20 11:59 AM
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It’s been a few years since I measured any rockers for ratio correctness.
The last ones were Jesel 1.7’s on Indy 572-13’s....... I don’t remember what the exact numbers were, but the gist of what I saw was there wasn’t any “extra” ratio built in.......and that with 800lbs open load they did lose a little....... but not much.

The farthest off on the high side I’ve measured were some HS 1.6’s on a set of Indy SR’s.
1.67 with checking springs and still about 1.63 with 700lbs spring load.

I’ve tested several BBM rockers that lost over .05 ratio going from checking springs to full spring load.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: T&D rocker ratio loss when loaded [Re: pittsburghracer] #2734133
01/18/20 12:04 PM
01/18/20 12:04 PM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Hey don’t blame me because you own a fat car. Lmao 😂.

What's the tin can weigh, anyway? I was wondering if we switched engines whose car would pick up and whose would slow down. wink



I’ll just say I’m a racer that races almost every week (7 months a year) at the track for the last 46 years or so. I have never raced a car that weights more than 3200 pounds as I want to go as fast as I can, on a budget, with zero tricks on fancy gadgets. It would be stupid for me to race a FAT car and I never will. If you want to line up, let’s go.

Are you afraid to admit how light your car is??? laugh2

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