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Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: 67_Satellite] #2732367
01/12/20 07:59 AM
01/12/20 07:59 AM

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Originally Posted by 67_Satellite
Why try to re-invent the already new and improved wheel?(2cents)


a) because you can

b) some of us have some amount of objection to the wheel being digital

c) a clean current gen body is easier and likely cheaper to find than an old one

d) was the OP in Colorado when "inspired"?

e) it would be the only one at SEMA

f) many of the above

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: poorboy] #2732369
01/12/20 08:25 AM
01/12/20 08:25 AM

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Originally Posted by poorboy
I think I'd want to know if the front suspension could handle the additional weight. Then again, if you got rid of all the computers and wiring, maybe there wouldn't be much weight difference. work

Then the next deal would be the brake system. You will need to reroute all the brake lines to eliminate the computer controlled anti lock brake system currently on the car. Its not like the early days when you just bypassed the thing above the rear end and ran a single line to the rear axle. you get to start at the master cylinder and work from there. My concern would be if these massive brakes will work without all the computer assist.
Beyond that, everything electrical inside the car has to be changed to old school. You might want to look at a flood car, clean up the body, trash everything inside of it, and build from there.
Then, as long as you can drive it where you don't need to pass any kind of vehicle inspection or emission testing you might be OK, because it would never pass the visual inspection, let along an actual emission test.

Of course, when you do this, we will all want to watch the process in pictures. Then we will be able to decide if we want to put this muck work into a project like this. Gene


Lots of good points here.

A 440 is a big heavy chunk of metal but where there's a will.... Clearly not an aftermarket off the shelf fix but maybe talk to AlterKation and see what they think. I'm thinking maybe autocross parts or transplant springs from a [diesel] truck. Also raises the question of how much real estate you've got under the hood. If you could shoe horn an aluminum block G2 Hemi in there that would probably solve the weight problem. It wouldn't have the curb appeal of an RB but a stroked 360 LA would be smaller and lighter and not exactly anemic if built right.

I don't think brakes would be a major problem. If you were doing a 50 yr old Challenger you'd likely end up running all new lines away. Somebody else made the point that it's still just a hydro system and see also: Wildwood. Pretty sure their typical restomod formula is big rotors, big calipers, generic booster, no electronic voodoo.

As for street legal, clearly forget about it if you're California or NJ or a lot of other places. I think you'd be ok from a vehicle safety inspection perspective - lights, horns, wipers, tires, brakes, exhaust. I am positive that PA gives you a pass on the emissions based on mileage since last test - I see the exempt stickers on late model stuff routinely.

So far I'm not hearing a good reason not to or how it isn't doable.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: ] #2732371
01/12/20 08:32 AM
01/12/20 08:32 AM
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Tulsa OK
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While its not my cup of tea it for sure could be done. Just make sure it is s healthy 440 because the 300HP V6 with the 8 speed will give a stockfish one a good run lol.

You could probably get enough information to the computer to get crap to work. It needs engine RPM, coolant temp, and vehicle speed to make lots of things work. You will never get a check engine light off but I bet you can bring life to most of the modern stuff that makes these new cars tick(HVAC, smart windows, gauges, etc).

The smart window is smart, I have never ridden in an older vehicle with frameless windows that didn't make some kind of noise at the seams. Most of our old cars are to loud to hear or we have to have the windows down to we don't get asphyxiated so we never hear the noise lol. The seal is payable enough that the door will open just fine with a dead battery. It won't close well but you can open it so you can get either end open for jumper cables.

I also wouldn't worry about the weight of the "mighty 440" because I am sure a hellcat engine and trans in full dress weighs more, probably a lot more.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
87 "Chrysler" Conquest
Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: yellowgtx] #2732411
01/12/20 11:49 AM
01/12/20 11:49 AM
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Posts: 131
British Columbia
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WOW Thanks for all the input guys. I keep saying this is my last car (65 Satellite AFX clone) But I just had a brain fart that there is a lot of milaged out 2008-2010's around and the value of them if the tranny or motor is gone puts them close to scrap or part out mode. Not interested in a drag car. Been there done that. Just like having a project on the go. I have seen a lot of the little 3.6- V6's that can put an old 383 or even some 440's on the trailer. It was just an idea I had to throw it out there to see how much of a problem the electronics would be. Also an economical way to maybe land a new style Challenger. Been retired for 16 years now so car money is I might say running on empty. A 340 or even a way cheaper 318 would be easier, as would building just for drag racing. Emissions up in my part are not a factor. Thanks for all the input. I will be watching for more.


After almost 71 years I am on my last car. A 65 Plymouth Satellite straight axle altered wheel base car.
Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: ] #2732684
01/13/20 12:13 PM
01/13/20 12:13 PM
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St. Louis, Mo
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Originally Posted by RWG75
Originally Posted by ZIPPY


You need to have "smart glass" so the windows will seal when the door is opened and closed.



Smart glass is stupid. The only explanation I've ever heard for it is to make the glass seal better. The frameless windows on my 45 year old cars still seal just fine so not buying that one. Ever try opening one when it's got a coating of ice on it and the window won't go down?

end tangent.


Don't get me going on the smart glass. My 2010 Challenger is my daily driver, and has to live outside. Winter is fun when the glass is froze and I can't get in the car. Fortunately, I have a 2011 Dakota 4WD to fall back on. At least when it freezes, I can get in it the old fashioned way by prying open the frozen doors with a rag-wrapped screwdriver... whistling

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: 318 Stroker] #2732723
01/13/20 03:07 PM
01/13/20 03:07 PM
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British Columbia
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they are heavy cars. i have a couple 300's one 5.7 and one 6.1 the 5.7 is a little over 4400lbs thats a bunch of weight to start off with.

gut the whole car of its electronics and extra weight, put a solid axle in it and it would be a ton of fun, not a cheap project though.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: chrisf] #2732728
01/13/20 03:47 PM
01/13/20 03:47 PM
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I just sold my 2010 Challenger SE V6 six months ago with 346,000 miles on the clock. It was in VERY good shape. I also have a 413 big block sitting in my garage. I'd actually thought about dropping in the big block... for about three seconds, then good sense came to me. In my state, man there's just no way to get this car inspected after that. In fact, I'd have to be an electrical engineer to get the car with all of it's systems running, gauges, heater, lights, wipers. All of that stuff goes though some kind of computer and they all talk to each other. I just said "to heck with it" and sold the car.

Greg

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: Greg55_99] #2732730
01/13/20 04:12 PM
01/13/20 04:12 PM
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Keymar, MD
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I like the idea. With all the emission stuff and what not I think it will be hard to make legal for the road and is only going to get worse in the future. I like the idea of it for a race car though. I have a nice supply of engines and trans that hopefully will last me a life time of racing. It would probably be easier and cheaper to find a new challenger body/car to convert into a race car than buy an muscle car era and fix all the rust, etc.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: yellowgtx] #2732827
01/13/20 10:23 PM
01/13/20 10:23 PM
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Oregon
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I used to own a Lexus SC 300 which I thought was one of the best looking cars ever. Those cars are fairly cheap now since they are so expensive to repair so I've thought about buying one with a blown head gasket and turning it into a race car with a big block Mopar under the hood. It would be a huge project though and I just can't bring myself to pulling the trigger. I think a 440 in a new Challenger would be the same type of project. You would spend a ton of time and money to get it sorted out but I guess you would be the only one around. Starting with a drag pack car would be easier since they have already done most of the mods for you but of course, those are spendy.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: DusterKid] #2732828
01/13/20 10:23 PM
01/13/20 10:23 PM
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Phoenix, AZ
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My first inclination is to dismiss this idea for being counterproductive. A 5.7 Hemi will outperform a stock 440 in acceleration, mileage and durability. It weighs less.
Then I started thinking about all of those V6 Challengers out there. An aluminum headed 440 with aluminum intake and a Sniper fuel injection setup could be pretty cool. You'd have more power than the 5.7, gobs more torque and it would be an engine that you could fix yourself. The Interior wouldn't need to be gone through, the body should be in better shape and the suspension gives a nicer ride than any old rusty musclecar. In short, the "buy-in" of $5-7000 gets you a pretty good starting point. People put aftermarket gauges in old cars so that isn't really an obstacle. Heating and A/C would pose some problems but a crafty guy should be able to devise something from Classic Auto Air or Vintage Air.
No anti-lock brakes? So what? Old cars don't have them and people survived without them.
The real hurdle is emission testing. Technically, it is against Federal law to alter or remove the OEM emission equipment. It makes no difference if a state does no inspection or emission testing, it is still illegal to remove the stuff. I get it though, if they don't check, it is highly unlikely that a Federal agent is going to apprehend a guy with a 2009 440 Challenger.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: yellowgtx] #2732842
01/13/20 11:19 PM
01/13/20 11:19 PM
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Hamtramck, PA
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Putting a 440 in a new car would be like force feeding an entire prime rib to a Vegan.

Not good for the person & a sad, wasteful use of the prime rib.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: Alaskan_TA] #2732877
01/14/20 08:26 AM
01/14/20 08:26 AM

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Just for grins I surfed around Copart the other day. Found at least (3) flood cars listed with no reserve. Might get bid up for the parts value, might be worth watching just to see how high they go. One from SC which is likely a salt water flood and a couple from Houston which should be fresh water. I think I'd avoid the salt water ones.

As for title / registration headaches: going from salvage to reconstructed seems to be pretty routine in most places, starting with a flood branded title could be a non starter as that's supposed to mean unrepairable and for parts only. Reconstructed meas different things in different states. In PA it mostly means "safe to operate", other places might expect as delivered systems to be functioning - air bags being the big headache there. If I get bored / curious later I'll look at the DMV regs about "street rod" titles as that could be a loop hole big enough to drive through.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: ] #2732908
01/14/20 11:19 AM
01/14/20 11:19 AM
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north of coder
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Pa street rod title will be no good since it's for 1948 and earlier vehicles.
however, the "collector" title may be an alternative. it seems to have a few loopholes you may be able to take advantage of.
beer

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: moparx] #2732931
01/14/20 12:43 PM
01/14/20 12:43 PM
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MI, usa
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Suspension holding the weight is easy. Once the junk you want to remove is gone. The brakes with the correct bore master cylinder, piece of cake. Weight? No issue. I've seen them below 3200 with stock appearing interior, power windows, ect. Again remove junk you dont need. Air bags extra stereo, A/C, power steering, etc. The windows. Now there's an issue. Making them work without the BCM can be done . But it's not cheap. The earlier models window are a little easier.
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 01/14/20 12:45 PM.
Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: dvw] #2732937
01/14/20 12:53 PM
01/14/20 12:53 PM
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Eagle, Idaho
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Viper V10 and manual transmission would be cool as well.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: Neil] #2733147
01/14/20 09:52 PM
01/14/20 09:52 PM
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Giving this some thought, maybe a flood car wouldn't be the way to go. It would have to be inspected in order to be put back on the road. That may be a deal killer. Buying a cheap used car would probably provide less issues. A plain Jane stripped version would probably be best, less stuff to alter. Anything electrical on the car would need to be redesigned it get away from the body computer because it all would be security coded to everything else. I think everything after 2005 was all security coded and everything had to match up to work. Gene

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: Stanton] #2733282
01/15/20 10:21 AM
01/15/20 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanton
Do you live where they check emissions controls? You'd have a fun time making a 440 compliant to the current standards.


This or any type of safety inspection required to register the vehicle could easily derail the whole project.

In some places in the US, when significantly mis-matched eras of chassis and engine are put together, some jurisdictions will make everything be compliant to the newest year of the combination.

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: dvw] #2733595
01/16/20 12:42 PM
01/16/20 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dvw
Suspension holding the weight is easy. Once the junk you want to remove is gone. The brakes with the correct bore master cylinder, piece of cake. Weight? No issue. I've seen them below 3200 with stock appearing interior, power windows, ect. Again remove junk you dont need. Air bags extra stereo, A/C, power steering, etc. The windows. Now there's an issue. Making them work without the BCM can be done . But it's not cheap. The earlier models window are a little easier.
Doug


Is the below 3200 with aftermarket front and rear suspension and mounting vs something based off using oem front and rear cradles?

Also including some form of roll cage?

I've looked a bit on the web for info on this haven't seen any particular detailed info for a new challenger with extreme weight reduction, other than the Drag Pak style cars, which I think are more than 3200 (not sure though).

Any recommendations for racers to follow who have done this or other examples on the web?

Thanks!

Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: Jjs72D] #2733598
01/16/20 01:02 PM
01/16/20 01:02 PM
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Holland MI Ottawa
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V6 car would be excellent candidate as well as stolen recovered and fresh water flood. Body and paint work is incredibly expensive and a regular car guy cannot get pro results. Taking a Mint newer challenger the paint and body is done. The rest of the stuff- replacing new tech with old, fabbing mounts oil pan and exh etc can be done by handi car guy. Wont be cheap but will be cheaper than doing a classic. Using alum heads and WP housing sheds a lot of weight from the classic 440. And again any collision shop can tend to body repair and oem body part pipeline exists. Why is it OK to put modern Skinny jean, man bun, latte sipping save the world by posting from their iphone oversize wheels on an old classic but not ok to put old iron in modern car?

Last edited by 2boltmain; 01/16/20 01:05 PM.

Keep old mopars alive.
Re: anyone put a 440 in new style Challenger [Re: 2boltmain] #2733749
01/16/20 08:55 PM
01/16/20 08:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
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Phoenix, AZ
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Hey now, not everyone with larger diameter wheels on their classic has a man bun. That is just wrong, man!

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