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Re: Track Racing Mopars! [Re: jcc] #2722449
12/08/19 12:11 AM
12/08/19 12:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,863
Akron, Ohio
ProSport Offline
I Live Here
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Akron, Ohio
Some awesome photos in this thread, I love seeing the corner carving Mopars. I've always loved that yellow Hotchkis Challenger and I finally have a car very similar.


Sassy Grass street Duster, best of 10.69 at 124 driven to the track with 3.23 gears, naturally aspirated on 93 octane.
Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: ProSport] #2722745
12/09/19 12:29 PM
12/09/19 12:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,397
Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
top fuel
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Answering the call of the wild
I am away from here most of the time so patience is required. It takes a while for me to type something to detail. Technical support is only good if you use it. This is technical support.

Remember the cars i build are driven normally like as in transportation that your wife can drive and run many hot laps on the road course track. When i built the Charger [car#2] our goal was to run the magic number at the Glen [Thunder Road] of 2.5 minutes on the full course on street tires and still have the wife drive it. We did both. The owner & wife passed away at 52 recently so track tires on the track are out of the question. I am now the caretaker of the car - awaiting license plates - so if i am lucky i will bring it to Carlisle and i may even run it at the Glen in June. It has factory type cruise control for those 80 mph interstate runs. The car is a blast to drive fast and easy to drive slow.

The thinking is always to put huge tires on the car to make it handle better but huge tires come with compromises. A 26 inch tall tire with 10 inches of tread fits perfectly and looks perfect. No compromises means there is no rubbing or hitting in full travel and high speed driving/turning situations. The bigger tires require the proper selection of HD suspension parts and car needs structural modifications to eliminate flex. In other words back up the grip. I am not convinced that staggered tire sizes is practical from a handling geometry viewpoint on these cars from years of laps and normal {?} driving.
drive

You have to back up the big tires with good hardware on a solid platform. Weld & box the k frame is mandatory as are adjustable shocks, boxed lower control arms, aftermarket upper control arms, firm feel 3 box etc. 16:1 steering is perfect for the road course, i see no requirement for fasting ratios etc as that will not make the car faster in the turns so the lap times get better. Bling.
Don't forget the brakes.

Regardless of size you need proper tire selection to get the car to rotate in a turn - like it's on string. W or Z rated selection so you can switch to track tires if you really want fly. I ran both types of tires. The close to stock look of 255-50-16 inch tires on a retro look 16 inch wheel tires is a nice and proper look. You don't want car people to know the car is really a wicked wanda. An old muscle car with five spoke mag wheels. Btw a sidewall is required for ride comfort. Go look on the tire rack for a w rated street tire and track tire and there are no 17 inch selections.


Tires




glen 2011 rtag 2.jpg
Last edited by ThermoQuad; 12/09/19 12:37 PM.
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: ThermoQuad] #2722789
12/09/19 04:34 PM
12/09/19 04:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 21,926
Trumussia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 21,926
Trumussia
Originally Posted by ThermoQuad
I am away from here most of the time so patience is required. It takes a while for me to type something to detail. Technical support is only good if you use it. This is technical support.

Remember the cars i build are driven normally like as in transportation that your wife can drive and run many hot laps on the road course track. When i built the Charger [car#2] our goal was to run the magic number at the Glen [Thunder Road] of 2.5 minutes on the full course on street tires and still have the wife drive it. We did both. The owner & wife passed away at 52 recently so track tires on the track are out of the question. I am now the caretaker of the car - awaiting license plates - so if i am lucky i will bring it to Carlisle and i may even run it at the Glen in June. It has factory type cruise control for those 80 mph interstate runs. The car is a blast to drive fast and easy to drive slow.

The thinking is always to put huge tires on the car to make it handle better but huge tires come with compromises. A 26 inch tall tire with 10 inches of tread fits perfectly and looks perfect. No compromises means there is no rubbing or hitting in full travel and high speed driving/turning situations. The bigger tires require the proper selection of HD suspension parts and car needs structural modifications to eliminate flex. In other words back up the grip. I am not convinced that staggered tire sizes is practical from a handling geometry viewpoint on these cars from years of laps and normal {?} driving.
drive

You have to back up the big tires with good hardware on a solid platform. Weld & box the k frame is mandatory as are adjustable shocks, boxed lower control arms, aftermarket upper control arms, firm feel 3 box etc. 16:1 steering is perfect for the road course, i see no requirement for fasting ratios etc as that will not make the car faster in the turns so the lap times get better. Bling.
Don't forget the brakes.

Regardless of size you need proper tire selection to get the car to rotate in a turn - like it's on string. W or Z rated selection so you can switch to track tires if you really want fly. I ran both types of tires. The close to stock look of 255-50-16 inch tires on a retro look 16 inch wheel tires is a nice and proper look. You don't want car people to know the car is really a wicked wanda. An old muscle car with five spoke mag wheels. Btw a sidewall is required for ride comfort. Go look on the tire rack for a w rated street tire and track tire and there are no 17 inch selections.

Well that is polite and reasoned reply with many valid agreeable points. up

However my viewpoint is different.

I agree as one "over tires" ANY vehicle, other mods need to be taken to utilize the larger(?) tires full traction circle.

That DOS NOT mean there is no benefit from over tiring a vehicle without mods.

I have not I believe, anywhere suggested there is no downside in over tiring a car, in the realm of additional rotational mass, higher aero drag, aqua planing, cost, unbalancing due to poor size selection per axle, etc.

However one can on their own decide if the benefits in "overtiring" is worth the cost, in areas of higher driving performance, decreased braking distance ,etc.

My life experience in over 4 decades of "over tiring", and thru nearly all the sharing of others in that time, other then this thread, I have yet to review a solid case of how over tiring is a"mistake" and needs to be avoided, to the point, in the past, overtiring is but just a myth. That does not mean someday we might reach that point, like when an axles tires start to touch in the middle.



If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: jcc] #2726357
12/23/19 10:14 AM
12/23/19 10:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,452
Albany, NY
67SATisfaction Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art
67SATisfaction  Offline OP
The member whose name is actually Art

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,452
Albany, NY
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by ThermoQuad


You have to back up the big tires with good hardware on a solid platform. Weld & box the k frame is mandatory as are adjustable shocks, boxed lower control arms, aftermarket upper control arms, firm feel 3 box etc. 16:1 steering is perfect for the road course, i see no requirement for fasting ratios etc as that will not make the car faster in the turns so the lap times get better. Bling.
Don't forget the brakes.



I agree as one "over tires" ANY vehicle, other mods need to be taken to utilize the larger(?) tires full traction circle.

That DOS NOT mean there is no benefit from over tiring a vehicle without mods.

I have not I believe, anywhere suggested there is no downside in over tiring a car, in the realm of additional rotational mass, higher aero drag, aqua planing, cost, unbalancing due to poor size selection per axle, etc.

However one can on their own decide if the benefits in "overtiring" is worth the cost, in areas of higher driving performance, decreased braking distance ,etc.

My life experience in over 4 decades of "over tiring", and thru nearly all the sharing of others in that time, other then this thread, I have yet to review a solid case of how over tiring is a"mistake" and needs to be avoided, to the point, in the past, overtiring is but just a myth. That does not mean someday we might reach that point, like when an axles tires start to touch in the middle.



Hope you are warm and cozy down there, JC. It's 6F up here.

"I have yet to review a solid case of how over tiring is a "mistake" and needs to be avoided.."

I think ThermoQ is saying don't overtire a car without understanding the car's components are more likely to fail, which may be a mistake that will ruin your day.
I think you are saying don't be afraid to "over-tire" your car because better tires have clear and obvious performance benefits right out of the gate.

Would that be fair to say? Neither position is wrong - I think it's a choice.

Preaching to the choir here, but just to rehash or explain the thinking for my response;

Grippier tires allow a car to go faster but has a domino-effect. The most common result is it breaks the car somewhere. And if it breaks, some would be right to call that a mistake because it can end a day of racing, while others label it an opportunity to go faster and find where to make the car stronger..

Some owners want to invest up front and get the benefit while avoiding their car breaking a component, vs owners who are willing to get the benefit and willing to learn if their car breaks and needs repairing later. Most owners probably fall in the middle of these..

When the welds on the RoadRunner's front K-frame crack from the stress induced by the grippy tires ...which I found it on my brother's RR after 1/2 day of tracking on his new tires.. I showed him, and he decided to slow down, but not to stop racing the RR for the day. His drum brakes were already limiting him, so my brother didn't define this failure as a "mistake", but rather a problem he'll deal with later. I took it a step further and listed several additional places he should have stiffeners welded in, front and rear.

Each car, each setup, each component, and each attitude towards it, is a choice. We all compromise between benefit vs detriment, speed vs durability, - the increase in performance, weight, durability, cost, etc. and the all significant forces working on the car come via the tires -> cornering, braking and accelerating.
Cheers,
- Art


Last edited by 67SATisfaction; 12/23/19 10:35 AM.

1965 Satellite hardtop 361/2bbl, console 727, open 2.76
1967 Satellite convert 383/4bbl, column 727, open 3.23
1975 Maserati Bora, US spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8, 5-spd ZF man
1977 Maserati Khamsin, Euro spec 4.9L DOHC hemi V8, 5-spd ZF man
1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 2.5L SOHC hemi V6, 5-spd man transaxle
2007 Aston Martin DB9, 6.0L DOHC V12, 6spd man transaxle
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2726380
12/23/19 12:15 PM
12/23/19 12:15 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1 Offline
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Houston Tx
The road racers on the vette forum run faster times at road atlanta on 275's square vs 315's square. Same compound.

Contact patch for a given weight is always the same square inches.


-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: Uhcoog1] #2726421
12/23/19 03:53 PM
12/23/19 03:53 PM
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Trumussia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 21,926
Trumussia
Originally Posted by Uhcoog1
The road racers on the vette forum run faster times at road atlanta on 275's square vs 315's square. Same compound.

Contact patch for a given weight is always the same square inches.


Maybe, but three things i take away from that:

1. The vettes then need more horsepower
2. I bet a sixpack their 100-0 ft distance is less with the larger tires.
3. Tire pressure can effect contact patch, and the on track, tires aren't statically loaded , so it might be hard here on a keyboard to determine which set of tires are ideally pressured.
eek stirthepot

And "67"satisfaction Has a IMO valid restating of my position on the subject. up

Last edited by jcc; 12/23/19 03:55 PM.

If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: Uhcoog1] #2726497
12/23/19 10:20 PM
12/23/19 10:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,043
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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Texas
Originally Posted by Uhcoog1
The road racers on the vette forum run faster times at road atlanta on 275's square vs 315's square. Same compound.

Contact patch for a given weight is always the same square inches.


Doesn't surprise me, bigger tire requires more heat before the compound gets to it's optimal temperature. It is very important to match that for the given situation, autox, endurance, drag, etc. That said, a softer compound on the 315 setup will likely be faster and not overheat. drive


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: Picture Thread - Track Racing Mopars! [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2727640
12/28/19 10:47 AM
12/28/19 10:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,266
Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Pikes Peak Country
Here are a couple from the oval track in the early 80s when I first started getting into how to make a big ole mopar turn as well as it went straight. Didn't have very sophisticated camera gear then. These are from the trusty Kodak Instamatic. Since this is a moparts, I'll limit this to the Plymouths and leave out the Chevys, Pontiacs, and Fords I've played with as well.

Red car was a slant 6 unit with front end damage I picked up for $300 and swapped in a 318. Blue car was a Sebring trim level car with a 383. Found it on the back of a dealers lot for $800. Class was highly restricted in mods allowed. The drag strip and oval track shared pits, hence the picture in front of the strip tower.

100_2422.jpg100_2423.jpg
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: jcc] #2727673
12/28/19 12:04 PM
12/28/19 12:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 82
Austria
3eighty3 Offline
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Austria
1970 Cuda at the Red Bull Ring. Quickest lap @ 1:56

4515AE41-5D13-4B11-AC31-284AE464B441.jpeg
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: 3eighty3] #2727676
12/28/19 12:07 PM
12/28/19 12:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 82
Austria
3eighty3 Offline
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Austria
Car is on street tires and with full interior. Motor is a 572 Aluminium wedge mated to a tko 600 5-speed transmission.

70AE9604-B275-448F-BE26-B3B7DFD04FD5.jpeg
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: 3eighty3] #2727747
12/28/19 02:37 PM
12/28/19 02:37 PM
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Trumussia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 21,926
Trumussia
What kinda mileage does it get?

eyes laugh2

Nicely equipped car. up


If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: 3eighty3] #2727758
12/28/19 03:07 PM
12/28/19 03:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,863
Akron, Ohio
ProSport Offline
I Live Here
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Akron, Ohio
3eighty3 that is awesome, do you have any video?


Sassy Grass street Duster, best of 10.69 at 124 driven to the track with 3.23 gears, naturally aspirated on 93 octane.
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: ProSport] #2727812
12/28/19 06:40 PM
12/28/19 06:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,309
Walnut Creek, CA
blown340 Offline
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Here's my 63 valiant lemons racecar..

_MG_7205.jpg

70 challenger convertible. 340/5 speed. blown, intercooled, efi, blah blah blah 71 valiant scamp 318/A833OD/AC/PS 00 dakota RC 4.7L 5 spd autoX'r. SRT10/T56 swap in process 73 W200 Power wagon, PTO winch, 4 spd
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: blown340] #2728024
12/29/19 02:32 PM
12/29/19 02:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 752
AZ - The "dry heat" state
71autoxr Offline
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AZ - The "dry heat" state
Originally Posted by blown340
Here's my 63 valiant lemons racecar..

Met you guys at Lemons December 2018 at Sears Point we "had" the duster there. Great car.


68 AMX mopars red headed stepchild
69 Dart GT Convertible 340 4 speed
71 Challenger - looks like the avatar!
Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: ProSport] #2732136
01/11/20 12:00 PM
01/11/20 12:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 82
Austria
3eighty3 Offline
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Re: Track Racing Mopars Do not overtire [Re: 3eighty3] #2733964
01/17/20 05:03 PM
01/17/20 05:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,863
Akron, Ohio
ProSport Offline
I Live Here
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Very cool


Sassy Grass street Duster, best of 10.69 at 124 driven to the track with 3.23 gears, naturally aspirated on 93 octane.
Re: Picture Thread - Track Racing Mopars! [Re: 67SATisfaction] #2750903
03/11/20 07:08 AM
03/11/20 07:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 898
Georgia
72440CUDA Offline
super stock
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Georgia
Some old picks of some Auto-X at that MATS. Car did ok for totally not being set up for it. I got 2nd in my class.

4A63A827-BD3C-4FA5-83CD-63100431CF7C.jpegB2AAB687-4790-4FCB-AA14-9FD8F3EAC19A.jpeg0D47C831-D750-458E-BBED-346900B47D36.jpeg
Re: Picture Thread - Track Racing Mopars! [Re: 72440CUDA] #2750923
03/11/20 08:02 AM
03/11/20 08:02 AM
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Trumussia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 21,926
Trumussia
A 440?

Looks good to me up


If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, don't waste your time, because nothing will
Re: Picture Thread - Track Racing Mopars! [Re: 72440CUDA] #2751012
03/11/20 01:12 PM
03/11/20 01:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,330
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
pro stock
Mopar Mitch  Offline
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NW Chicago suburban area
Nice looking 72 Cuda! and having fun with the car!


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Picture Thread - Track Racing Mopars! [Re: jcc] #2751104
03/11/20 08:08 PM
03/11/20 08:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 898
Georgia
72440CUDA Offline
super stock
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Georgia
Quote
jcc
A 440?

Looks good to me up


Yes Sir! Thanks, it’s a work in progress.

22F0B578-883F-45D9-B8F8-72605EC07EBB.jpeg
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