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Cluster Gear #2731075
01/08/20 12:52 PM
01/08/20 12:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,597
South San Francisco, Ca
70sixpkrt Offline OP
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My buddy is rebuilding my 18 spline transmission and found this inside the 1st gear cluster gear. Inside the bore it's starting to flakey/scale. What would cause this?

cluster gear.jpg

[img]http://www.imgur.com/hxlGUJt.gif[/img]
4-speed
3:54 Dana
13.01 @107.93 with street tires (not hooking up)
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2731098
01/08/20 02:15 PM
01/08/20 02:15 PM
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Posts: 22,318
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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"Metal spalling is a process of metallic surface failure in which the metal is broken down into small flakes (spalls) from a larger solid body. This process occurs for many reasons, such as when another material impacts it at a high speed resulting in chipping the material, or due to corrosion, weathering, cavitation or excessive rolling pressure."


Doing my best to irritate the herd.
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: John_Kunkel] #2731124
01/08/20 03:09 PM
01/08/20 03:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,597
South San Francisco, Ca
70sixpkrt Offline OP
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Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
"Metal spalling is a process of metallic surface failure in which the metal is broken down into small flakes (spalls) from a larger solid body. This process occurs for many reasons, such as when another material impacts it at a high speed resulting in chipping the material, or due to corrosion, weathering, cavitation or excessive rolling pressure."

Can you please put that in layman's language? Are you saying normal wear and tear since I used to race and bang the gears?


[img]http://www.imgur.com/hxlGUJt.gif[/img]
4-speed
3:54 Dana
13.01 @107.93 with street tires (not hooking up)
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2731129
01/08/20 03:26 PM
01/08/20 03:26 PM
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda Offline
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Originally Posted by 70sixpkRT
Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
"Metal spalling is a process of metallic surface failure in which the metal is broken down into small flakes (spalls) from a larger solid body. This process occurs for many reasons, such as when another material impacts it at a high speed resulting in chipping the material, or due to corrosion, weathering, cavitation or excessive rolling pressure."

Can you please put that in layman's language? Are you saying normal wear and tear since I used to race and bang the gears?

It's broke


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2731138
01/08/20 03:56 PM
01/08/20 03:56 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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It's worn out shruggy
Not unusual if it was ran low on lube or had sit a long time twocents
I've seen that on the tip of a output shaft, I ended up having a old time aircraft machinest weld it up with stelite rod and turn it back down to size and ran it shruggy
Not sure if that is the solution for that gear or not, probably not work

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 01/08/20 03:57 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: Cab_Burge] #2731181
01/08/20 06:16 PM
01/08/20 06:16 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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A flake of metal debris in those rollers would have made quick work of that.

Re: Cluster Gear [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2731276
01/08/20 10:23 PM
01/08/20 10:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda Offline
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I think if it was mine I would call Brewers and ask if anyone has a sleave to repair that.


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: GomangoCuda] #2731286
01/08/20 11:10 PM
01/08/20 11:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,597
South San Francisco, Ca
70sixpkrt Offline OP
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Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
I think if it was mine I would call Brewers and ask if anyone has a sleave to repair that.

Already did. No. Brewers and Passon Perf doesn't have any. I'm looking for a new one and nobody has any.


[img]http://www.imgur.com/hxlGUJt.gif[/img]
4-speed
3:54 Dana
13.01 @107.93 with street tires (not hooking up)
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2731304
01/09/20 01:56 AM
01/09/20 01:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,064
New York, USA
Chargerfan68 Offline
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Originally Posted by 70sixpkRT
Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
I think if it was mine I would call Brewers and ask if anyone has a sleave to repair that.

Already did. No. Brewers and Passon Perf doesn't have any. I'm looking for a new one and nobody has any.


Try Brian at SK speed in Lindenhurst, NY. You might be very surprised. smile


1.50 60Ft. , 10.75@ 127MPH Hauling 3900 LBS.
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: Chargerfan68] #2731330
01/09/20 08:43 AM
01/09/20 08:43 AM
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Posts: 5,840
Abilene, Texas
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fastmark Offline
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Abilene, Texas
How did the roller bearings look at that position. I bet you could pick them out of the pile that fell out of the cluster gear. That’s the low gear end of the shaft. Must have been lots of pressure applied there.

Re: Cluster Gear [Re: GomangoCuda] #2731334
01/09/20 08:55 AM
01/09/20 08:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,101
East Aurora (Buffalo) NY
RoadRunner Offline
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Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
I think if it was mine I would call Brewers and ask if anyone has a sleave to repair that.


You may have to go to a precision machine shop in your area to look at it. I wonder if you could take a cut out in the bearing to remove the damage and go with slightly larger rolling elements. I'd worry about a sleeve on the inside as it may weaken the tube some. Though looking at the pictures, there is a lot of meat there. So a sleeve properly installed could work. But I think that repair is beyond most automotive restoration and machine shops. I think you are into high end industrial repair shops. Hopefully the cost doesn't outweigh the replacement.


68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg)
69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed.
70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: RoadRunner] #2731356
01/09/20 10:21 AM
01/09/20 10:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,795
Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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Here's a thought ... install a bronze bushing in there (just that one location - not the whole cluster) and run thinner lube in the trans.

Re: Cluster Gear [Re: Chargerfan68] #2731363
01/09/20 10:39 AM
01/09/20 10:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,597
South San Francisco, Ca
70sixpkrt Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Chargerfan68
Originally Posted by 70sixpkRT
Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
I think if it was mine I would call Brewers and ask if anyone has a sleave to repair that.

Already did. No. Brewers and Passon Perf doesn't have any. I'm looking for a new one and nobody has any.


Try Brian at SK speed in Lindenhurst, NY. You might be very surprised. smile

Will call. Thanks. No dice on SK speed. Brian is a lot of knowledge. He said to put it back together until I find one. There were no problems except for a little popping out of first gear. That's not related to the cluster gear.

Last edited by 70sixpkRT; 01/09/20 12:31 PM.

[img]http://www.imgur.com/hxlGUJt.gif[/img]
4-speed
3:54 Dana
13.01 @107.93 with street tires (not hooking up)
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2731425
01/09/20 02:03 PM
01/09/20 02:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,064
New York, USA
Chargerfan68 Offline
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Originally Posted by 70sixpkRT
Originally Posted by Chargerfan68
Originally Posted by 70sixpkRT
Originally Posted by GomangoCuda
I think if it was mine I would call Brewers and ask if anyone has a sleave to repair that.

Already did. No. Brewers and Passon Perf doesn't have any. I'm looking for a new one and nobody has any.


Try Brian at SK speed in Lindenhurst, NY. You might be very surprised. smile

Will call. Thanks. No dice on SK speed. Brian is a lot of knowledge. He said to put it back together until I find one. There were no problems except for a little popping out of first gear. That's not related to the cluster gear.


Well, it was worth a shot. I got a bunch of Nos 833 stuff from him over the years and his collection was staggering. The popping out of gear is most likely angle worn dog teeth on the gear, as he probably told you. Did you ask if he had an nos 1 st gear?


1.50 60Ft. , 10.75@ 127MPH Hauling 3900 LBS.
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: Stanton] #2731430
01/09/20 02:11 PM
01/09/20 02:11 PM
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Posts: 37,571
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Originally Posted by Stanton
Here's a thought ... install a bronze bushing in there (just that one location - not the whole cluster) and run thinner lube in the trans.

No way in the world would I even think of putting needle bearings in the cluster gear against a bronze bushing, no way tsk
I don't know what exactly the heat treat is on those gears and the other gears in the NP833 but I'll bet they are really hard, same thing on the needles bearings and roller bearings work
I would look into seeing if there is a material good enough to make a repair insert( that would have to be press in with the proper interference fit to keep it from spinning when hot) in it though scope twocents
OP, your pursuing the best bet,, a new NOS gear up
What does the cluster gear shaft look like on that end?

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 01/09/20 02:12 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: Cab_Burge] #2731442
01/09/20 02:28 PM
01/09/20 02:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,318
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
Much ado about nothing
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Posts: 22,318
Rio Linda, CA
I think a bronze bushing is the most practical solution, not needle bearings on the bronze bushing but a bushing directly on the shaft. The gears are case hardened so boring the gear would involve grinding rather than boring with a tool bit.


Doing my best to irritate the herd.
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: John_Kunkel] #2731452
01/09/20 02:44 PM
01/09/20 02:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,795
Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
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Ontario, Canada
Quote
No way in the world would I even think of putting needle bearings in the cluster gear against a bronze bushing, no way


WHERE did I say anything about needle bearings ?!?!? Install a bronze bushing in that one location INSTEAD OF needle bearings - it saves the cluster at least !!

Re: Cluster Gear [Re: Cab_Burge] #2731464
01/09/20 03:16 PM
01/09/20 03:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,597
South San Francisco, Ca
70sixpkrt Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by Stanton
Here's a thought ... install a bronze bushing in there (just that one location - not the whole cluster) and run thinner lube in the trans.

No way in the world would I even think of putting needle bearings in the cluster gear against a bronze bushing, no way tsk
I don't know what exactly the heat treat is on those gears and the other gears in the NP833 but I'll bet they are really hard, same thing on the needles bearings and roller bearings work
I would look into seeing if there is a material good enough to make a repair insert( that would have to be press in with the proper interference fit to keep it from spinning when hot) in it though scope twocents
OP, your pursuing the best bet,, a new NOS gear up
What does the cluster gear shaft look like on that end?

The gear shaft does not too bad. Just some wear. I ordered a new shaft anyway. The tranny has a new 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear in it already from my last rebuilt 15 years ago. They look excellent. He said the popping/sliding out of 1st is probably something else. I also have a new 1-2 hub assembly. It's going to be put back together with the new shaft and 1-2 hub assembly and wait until I find a cluster gear.

Last edited by 70sixpkRT; 01/09/20 03:23 PM.

[img]http://www.imgur.com/hxlGUJt.gif[/img]
4-speed
3:54 Dana
13.01 @107.93 with street tires (not hooking up)
Re: Cluster Gear [Re: 70sixpkrt] #2731805
01/10/20 03:00 PM
01/10/20 03:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,094
Phila Pa
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scatpacktom Offline
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Phila Pa
So here is the bigger picture... The world is out of 18 spline clusters?

Re: Cluster Gear [Re: scatpacktom] #2731854
01/10/20 04:27 PM
01/10/20 04:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,295
Wheatfield, NY
Cuda340 Offline
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Wheatfield, NY
Is Liberty Gear still in business? They maybe able to fix the cluster. Just a thought. http://libertysgears.com/

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