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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: AndyF] #2730819
01/07/20 02:08 PM
01/07/20 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by mopowers
Seems to me that it isn't as simple as comparing the mortgage interest rate with the return rate of the alternative investments. Wouldn't you have to take the increased home value into account? In other words, the extra money you put into paying down the house is worth more as the home value increases. Is this correct?


Not really, in fact it is probably the opposite of that. Paying off your house decreases your leverage so any gain in value is at a reduced percentage. If you put $10,000 down on a house that is worth $100,000 and the house goes up in value to $110,00 you just doubled your money. If you pay $100,000 for a house that is worth $100,000 and the value goes up to $110,00 then you made 10%. Obviously doubling your money is better than getting a 10% return but the leverage is brutal on the down side.

If you own the house and the value drops to $90,000 you don't really care since you still own the house. If you put $10,000 down and the value drops to $90,000 you are broke. If the value drops to $80,000 you're underwater.



This is the “other people’s money” concept used by everyone in real estate. Just applied to your house. Makes sense seeing as most view a house as an investment anyway, proven here by how many are investing in their one house and not a diversified portfolio that will build their net worth.

I don’t care what people do, except when I know it will result in them voting to have me pay for their retirement/healthcare costs do to not saving and investing. Pretty obvious you need to make about 400k per year to load all retirement accounts, plus pay down even an average home. I’ll guess most on here posting they paid off early didn’t manage to build their accounts while paying off the house. Loss of wealth and will expect freebies when they can’t work anymore.


Forever in debt to your priceless advice...
Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2730831
01/07/20 02:42 PM
01/07/20 02:42 PM
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Alot of good/funny/crazy replies on this deal.

Clearly we all do what we feel is best for us within a set of certain parameters, one of the last posts is funny to me as they are worried about paying for others heathcare, ect.....

Get real, WE ALL TAKE UP OTHERS SLACK ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. Hell I pay a phone bill or power bill and there is always a small charge like 25 cents for the low income people fund, here again we all take up others slack, its just how it is. My vehicle reg. has a small fee taking up slack for others or things that dont apply to me, but I gots to pay it.

The most funny thing is, some think and some do have it figured out well but at the end of the day who is winning? Not a single one of us, some may feel good but the house (gov/banks.) holds all the cards.

For me I read this and well, just read it, no need to figure out whos doing the wrong thing, im actually only concerned about the property I own within a certain set of metal steaks on my property line.

Good luck and good bickering guys.


STOP POTATO HATE!
Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2730834
01/07/20 02:46 PM
01/07/20 02:46 PM
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Quote
I’ll guess most on here posting they paid off early didn’t manage to build their accounts while paying off the house. Loss of wealth and will expect freebies when they can’t work anymore.


I can't speak for anyone here, so I don't know if the first part of your statement is accurate or not. I do agree that my experience is similar to what you suggest. Many (not all) of the people I know who intensely focused on being debt free were/are not especially good savers, especially with regard to retirement. I've been called names, laughed at, and criticized for not paying off my house, typically by people who don't understand the concept that investments earning more than the 3.5% I'm paying on my mortgage are more valuable than paying off my mortgage. That's fine by me. I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I have a very comfortable amount of retirement savings already at age 48. I will be able to pay for my kids' college educations in full. I have no debt other than my mortgage. I use credit cards for everything possible, and enjoy the nice cash back bonuses I get, all while paying $0 in credit card interest. My credit score is 828, so if I did want to borrow, banks will be falling all over themselves to loan me money at a low interest rate.

Bravo to anyone who has paid off their house, or paid cash for their house, and done so while still being able to save for retirement, etc...that's no easy feat. Anyone who is financially responsible, whether they use cash only, or use credit to their advantage, whether they pay off their house, or not, is OK in my book.


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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2730836
01/07/20 02:48 PM
01/07/20 02:48 PM
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I’ll guess most on here posting they paid off early didn’t manage to build their accounts while paying off the house. Loss of wealth and will expect freebies when they can’t work anymore. [/quote]

Retired at 55 with a well funded bank account I couldn't disagree with your guess more. Most people who saved enough to pay off their homes are very good savers and invest in themselves instead of making payments to a bank.

Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: HoosierTA] #2730843
01/07/20 03:13 PM
01/07/20 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by HoosierTA
Originally Posted by crackedback
Originally Posted by second 70
On a 30 Year loan you pay the interest back first so it only take a few dollars off the loan in the first years so paying as little as an extra $10 a month can shorten the loan by years.


You pay more in interest at first because the amount owed is higher, not that the interest is front loaded to benefit the lender. The lender wants to repaid on the amount that you owe, The interest decreases as the loan balance is reduced.

If you borrowed 100K at 10% you'd pay about $10,000 in interest the first year, same as on a 30 year loan/mortgage ($9975). Balance after 12 months of payments (99,444) Following year interest $9917. Check out an amortization calculator/schedule.

Yes paying a little extra every month can make a HUGE difference. I used to tell clients, if they were disciplined, to get a 30 year mortgage and pay the 15 year amortization amount. It will take about 15.5 years instead of 15 to pay off from a higher rate, but, it allows some flexibility in case something happens.



Right, interest paid is based on the present balance. Paying against principle, even a little bit helps over the life of the loan. Installment loans such as for vehicles are indeed front loaded using the "rule of 78" in which the beginning part of a loan is primarily the first part, until 78/78ths of the owed interest is paid. If a person has a a year remaining on a five year loan on a car, there is little need to pay it off early. Other than it is annoying to still be on your books. I have a 450 dollar balance on a motorcycle. It bugs me to have two more months, but what the heck.


When I paid extra on the principal my thought was always, that's money they can't charge interest on anymore.

To see how much interest you're paying monthly, multiply the principal by the interest rate, ex. 100,000x0.4375 and divide by 12 = $364.58


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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: 3hundred] #2730847
01/07/20 03:26 PM
01/07/20 03:26 PM
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My home loan was at 10.375 interest. That was a huge incentive to pay it off as soon as possible. Paid off a 15 year loan in 7, mainly due to paying whatever I could afford when it was time to make the next monthly payment.


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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: second 70] #2730909
01/07/20 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by second 70
I’ll guess most on here posting they paid off early didn’t manage to build their accounts while paying off the house. Loss of wealth and will expect freebies when they can’t work anymore.


Retired at 55 with a well funded bank account I couldn't disagree with your guess more. Most people who saved enough to pay off their homes are very good savers and invest in themselves instead of making payments to a bank. [/quote]

I agree. Wife and I are 58...while we're not retired yet, we have certainly planned. Our house has been paid off for many years(2000 sq ft,4 car attached on 1 acre) We have a 4 family(small mortgage easily covered by rent income) I'm 50% owner of a vacation lake property up north(no mortgage,going on the market in spring)Kids are done with college(both have masters degrees with minimal debt) We have a decent 401k, a couple smaller savings accounts and I'll be 25 yrs into my pension when I retire in 4 years. Our healthcare will be covered until Medicare kicks in and I have a 403b account to cover supplemental coverage for many years after that.

We have lived our lives very conservatively in order to be debt free and not rely on "freebies" when we retire! It's not hard..just requires common sense.

Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: John Brown] #2730910
01/07/20 07:31 PM
01/07/20 07:31 PM
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My only debt is my house, 3.125 % for the next 8 years. I pay extra to the principal every month, so it could be less than eight years. I don’t see the benefit in paying it off in full. My money is busy doing other things.
But congrats to those that have done so.


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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2730911
01/07/20 07:35 PM
01/07/20 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted by BloFish
The next question is where to move to avoid these bull$#!¥ taxes thumbs


Have fun in Cambodia.


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as long as you look good doing it!

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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: not_a_charger] #2730917
01/07/20 08:00 PM
01/07/20 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by not_a_charger
Quote
I’ll guess most on here posting they paid off early didn’t manage to build their accounts while paying off the house. Loss of wealth and will expect freebies when they can’t work anymore.


I can't speak for anyone here, so I don't know if the first part of your statement is accurate or not. I do agree that my experience is similar to what you suggest. Many (not all) of the people I know who intensely focused on being debt free were/are not especially good savers, especially with regard to retirement. I've been called names, laughed at, and criticized for not paying off my house, typically by people who don't understand the concept that investments earning more than the 3.5% I'm paying on my mortgage are more valuable than paying off my mortgage. That's fine by me. I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I have a very comfortable amount of retirement savings already at age 48. I will be able to pay for my kids' college educations in full. I have no debt other than my mortgage. I use credit cards for everything possible, and enjoy the nice cash back bonuses I get, all while paying $0 in credit card interest. My credit score is 828, so if I did want to borrow, banks will be falling all over themselves to loan me money at a low interest rate.

Bravo to anyone who has paid off their house, or paid cash for their house, and done so while still being able to save for retirement, etc...that's no easy feat. Anyone who is financially responsible, whether they use cash only, or use credit to their advantage, whether they pay off their house, or not, is OK in my book.


I would say in general that's a blanket statement. My parents and my dad's two brothers haven't had anything on a loan since at least 1987, they all were able to retire early and basically live on investment income very comfortably. They have no chance at all of spending all their retirement savings. Don't worry about us needing your help.

You should be worried about the guy who's mortgaged up to wazoo and is one paycheck loss away from an unrecoverable death spiral which drives all our property values down and crashes consumer spending, so the story of the 2008 crisis. Then the bottom falls out of your investments too. If you time it wrong in a situation like that, it's a real double whammy. The mortgaged to wazoo people are the people that are typically horrible at saving. You can be in the middle and do what you are doing, that works if you can consistently make that money and do better post paying the taxes for the capitol gains.

I paid my first house off at 26, and the second one off at 31 and I'm 33, turning 34 this year now. If your goal is to be debt free and invest like my family all did, you probably need to have a good career (no need to make 400k unless you live on the coasts apparently), and not do a lot of the things that people tend to do (buy new cars before they are needed, go out to eat all the time, spend huge money on smokes and alcohol, lavish vacations, etc), at least until you've gotten to a good place if not paid your debt off. Stuff like new cars and electronics depreciate at an amazing rate. Lots of people my age go on 2 international vacations a year and lease new BMWs then complain about their debt and cash flow...Gotta have some fun but people like that don't even put any value into saving or investing.

In my case I doubled my money on my first house in 6 years, so the investment was still decent. Paying it off didn't take too much really, the market was depressed in Detroit metro and the house was foreclosed. The second house was undervalued and I was able to get a better deal on it because the owners had just finished building a new house - and I ended up not owing much so it was easy to pay off. I never had enough interest to write off on my taxes before the change so it was easy to just throw some extra money that way each month.


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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: goldduster318] #2730933
01/07/20 09:07 PM
01/07/20 09:07 PM
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So you guys boasting about all the “money in the bank” are going to lie to us all and claim you funded all possible retirement accounts to the tune of about 30k, more with a spouse with a 401k, plus paid off a home way early? That requires making a top ten percent of society income. I’m sure some on her make that much. I’m sure one might have pulled it off. I’m saying that didn’t happen for all these guys bragging like they did something special paying off a house.

That doesn’t even get into the lowered net worth by paying off a house with a low rate versus investing in a taxable account.


Forever in debt to your priceless advice...
Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: Mr Potatohead] #2730934
01/07/20 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Potatohead
Alot of good/funny/crazy replies on this deal.

Clearly we all do what we feel is best for us within a set of certain parameters, one of the last posts is funny to me as they are worried about paying for others heathcare, ect.....

Get real, WE ALL TAKE UP OTHERS SLACK ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. Hell I pay a phone bill or power bill and there is always a small charge like 25 cents for the low income people fund, here again we all take up others slack, its just how it is. My vehicle reg. has a small fee taking up slack for others or things that dont apply to me, but I gots to pay it.

The most funny thing is, some think and some do have it figured out well but at the end of the day who is winning? Not a single one of us, some may feel good but the house (gov/banks.) holds all the cards.

For me I read this and well, just read it, no need to figure out whos doing the wrong thing, im actually only concerned about the property I own within a certain set of metal steaks on my property line.

Good luck and good bickering guys.


A retired couple can expect to spend 285k on healthcare alone in retirement. Who do you think will foot that bill? It won’t be the guys that didn’t save. It won’t be the guys that paid off their house early. Median boomer only has about 175k saved. That’s what is insane about this. Partly do to the misinformation being spread about being debt free as a panacea for all financial problems.


Forever in debt to your priceless advice...
Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2730938
01/07/20 09:15 PM
01/07/20 09:15 PM
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And it’s not an argument.

Here are the numbers showing what a 4% mortgage “investment” would get you over ten years in savings, versus the loss of net worth by not buying an index fund. 8% is long run average, I’ve seen people say it’s been more like 10 for last 30 years or so.

If you invested $500 a month for 10 years and earned a 4% rate of return, you’d have $73,625 today.
If you invested $500 a month for 10 years and earned a 6% rate of return, you’d have $81,940 today.
If you invested $500 a month for 10 years and earned an 8% rate of return, you’d have $91,473 today.


Forever in debt to your priceless advice...
Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2730942
01/07/20 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
That requires making a top ten percent of society income.


that is not a hard target to hit. It starts at $118k a year.

Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2730944
01/07/20 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
So you guys boasting about all the “money in the bank” are going to lie to us all and claim you funded all possible retirement accounts to the tune of about 30k, more with a spouse with a 401k, plus paid off a home way early? That requires making a top ten percent of society income. I’m sure some on her make that much. I’m sure one might have pulled it off. I’m saying that didn’t happen for all these guys bragging like they did something special paying off a house.

That doesn’t even get into the lowered net worth by paying off a house with a low rate versus investing in a taxable account.


Actually it isn't that hard to pay off a house and max out the retirement accounts on a worker bee salary. I know machine shop guys who have done that. They work some overtime every week but they don't get stock options or bonuses. The trick is to keep the expenses down.

I worked with guys making $250K a year who didn't have any savings. They went to Hawaii for Christmas, Palm Springs for spring break, Italy for the summer, etc. Their kids went to private school and had horses. They have a big power boat for summer time and belong to the country club. At the end of the day they had zero savings.

Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: AndyF] #2730958
01/07/20 10:04 PM
01/07/20 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
That requires making a top ten percent of society income.


that is not a hard target to hit. It starts at $118k a year.


To be fair, if it was easy to get that kind of income, that would be the median, not the current $60k/year household income.


Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
So you guys boasting about all the “money in the bank” are going to lie to us all and claim you funded all possible retirement accounts to the tune of about 30k, more with a spouse with a 401k, plus paid off a home way early? That requires making a top ten percent of society income. I’m sure some on her make that much. I’m sure one might have pulled it off. I’m saying that didn’t happen for all these guys bragging like they did something special paying off a house.

That doesn’t even get into the lowered net worth by paying off a house with a low rate versus investing in a taxable account.


Actually it isn't that hard to pay off a house and max out the retirement accounts on a worker bee salary. I know machine shop guys who have done that. They work some overtime every week but they don't get stock options or bonuses. The trick is to keep the expenses down.

I worked with guys making $250K a year who didn't have any savings. They went to Hawaii for Christmas, Palm Springs for spring break, Italy for the summer, etc. Their kids went to private school and had horses. They have a big power boat for summer time and belong to the country club. At the end of the day they had zero savings.


There are two separate problems that I see conflated all the time. A household that makes 30k a year and has no savings is equated to be the same as a household that makes 250k and has no savings. The outcome may be the same, but the cause is entirely different.
The first may indeed have a money management/spending problem, but their first problem is a lack of money. The second household does not have a money problem; they have a spending/management problem.

For someone (not you, Andy/SCC), to say the first household can be like the second just by managing their money better is disingenuous.

And I can confirm that horses are an absolute money sink laugh2


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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2730992
01/08/20 01:19 AM
01/08/20 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
I’ll guess most on here posting they paid off early didn’t manage to build their accounts while paying off the house. Loss of wealth and will expect freebies when they can’t work anymore.



You might be correct?...but some of us aren't expecting "freebies" when we retire, I learned extremely early in life to rely on no one other than oneself to prosper... I provided for my family, they never went without, I always put myself last, yet I managed to pay off my 30 yr mortgage 10 yrs early, provide for my wife to go back to school to earn a degree, as well as my daughter, payed off all student loans, my own, wife's and daughter's, as well as invest in company/corporate stock, and maintain a constant maximum contribution to my 401K, carry no debt/loans and live by the "cash only" credo .... I expect very little "freebies" from social security

Mike

Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: DAYCLONA] #2731045
01/08/20 10:22 AM
01/08/20 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
I’ll guess most on here posting they paid off early didn’t manage to build their accounts while paying off the house. Loss of wealth and will expect freebies when they can’t work anymore.



I've been retired for 7 years and pay $35K a year in federal taxes so to me I believe I'm the one paying for others freebies. And yes the high tax bill is because of fully funding a retirement account and investments I made due to not having a house payment.

And no I haven't taken any SS either.

But you know I have co-workers that made the same amount of money I did but had to keep getting new cars,bigger houses, latest everything, need it today pay for it tomorrow and are broke and had to go back to work.

I have a neighbor that complains he's always broke and to raise taxes on the rich. Well he is single and his income is in the top 25% so the problem isn't the income it's that he spends it all.

And I agree there isn't much of a benefit to pay off a low interest loan with only few years left. But if it's a high interest loan that's a different story.



Mike

Last edited by second 70; 01/08/20 10:45 AM.
Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: DAYCLONA] #2731053
01/08/20 10:44 AM
01/08/20 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DAYCLONA
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy
I’ll guess most on here posting they paid off early didn’t manage to build their accounts while paying off the house. Loss of wealth and will expect freebies when they can’t work anymore.



You might be correct?...but some of us aren't expecting "freebies" when we retire, I learned extremely early in life to rely on no one other than oneself to prosper... I provided for my family, they never went without, I always put myself last, yet I managed to pay off my 30 yr mortgage 10 yrs early, provide for my wife to go back to school to earn a degree, as well as my daughter, payed off all student loans, my own, wife's and daughter's, as well as invest in company/corporate stock, and maintain a constant maximum contribution to my 401K, carry no debt/loans and live by the "cash only" credo .... I expect very little "freebies" from social security

Mike


Dayclona is spot on. Yes, he and I probably live in an area that is more expensive but the pay is also better. House was paid of at 52 after we converted the 30 year mortgage to a 15 and added additional money against the principle every month. My DD is a base 09 Corolla no options. Why? It won't break, gets 32-40mpg and will last forever. Before that I drove my wife's 92 Paseo. We didn't live large but chose to pay off things early. No fancy vacations, cruises, timeshares, etc. Vacation for us was a long weekend to Hershey Park. Married 22 years and have been to Gatlinburg perhaps 3 times. 15% goes into the 401k. My point is it is what you do with the money that counts. I could have finished off the cars long ago but they are a "Luxury". In the same neighborhood, we have folks that make about the same as the wife and I do. they have larger nicer homes, boats, ATV, SUV, motorhomes, and all the newest gadgets. They are all living for today and trying to keep up with the Jones. Most also don't have their house even close to being paid for or have a clue how they will ever retire. That is what is great about America. We are all free to make these decisions, life the life we want, but also to live with the consequences of our decisions.


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Re: Who has paid off their house? [Re: klunick] #2731058
01/08/20 10:57 AM
01/08/20 10:57 AM
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Michigan
There is a lot of comfort in knowing your house is paid off and if it hits the fan, you have s place to live instead of in a tent on a sidewalk.
Even a better feeling knowing that if something happens to you (assuming everyone reading this is the primary breadwinner/maintenance guy) that the wife, kids/grandkids have a place to retreat to if it hits the fan.

My opinion only but for those of us with Depression Era parents - we heard the stories and learned how to try and prevent them from affecting our families firsthand.

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