Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes #2730682
01/06/20 11:44 PM
01/06/20 11:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline OP
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline OP
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
I've been building and racing Mopar since the early 1970s, one of my first problems on B R/B motors was a 1973 CA Highway patrol 440 motor out of a junkyard in Barstow, CA that a customer bought and brought to me to build it to replace the motor he had blown up in his 1971 Charger R/T 440 six pack car. I sent that block to the machine shop I used in Orange., CA to have it hot tank, magnaflux for cracks and the usual machine work needed to reuse some of his parts along with new cam bearings and freeze plugs.
I assemble the motor and the cam shaft didn't slide right in, it turn hard but I was stupid enough to think it world "breakin" luck WRONGrealcrazy
It ended up spinning the #4 cam bearing in the block which resulted with me having to fix it for no charge.
I took the block to the machine shop and told him about the cam not spinning easy and he told me that was not uncommon on Mopar B and RB motors shock I had him install new cam bearings and fix the fit with the cam to those new bearings, which he did a good job on up I ask him about align honing the cam tunnels and he told me he couldn't do that with his Sunnen CK10 block honing machine due to Mopar having five different I.D. on the cam tunnel for the cam bearing to fit into work
He said he had used small engine hand held hones on some Mopar blocks to get the I.D the proper size but it might be better for me to use a bearing knife to make the cam fit the bearings after they where installed instead of having him do it. He was always busy up, like most good shops where and he was 100 miles away also
I bought the tool needed to install cam bearings after that along with a good bearing knife so I could scrap and fit the bearings to the cam if needed. I have since seen about a 5 to 20% of the blocks needing the bearings fitted to the cams puke
It is really to bad Ma Mopar didn't have a higher standard on that step in the block preparations whiney
End of rant, take nothing for granite scope
I forgot to mention that I had spent the better part of last Tuesday scraping the cam bearings in a 1972 440 block I'm building now wrench whiney

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 01/07/20 07:48 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: Cab_Burge] #2730687
01/06/20 11:55 PM
01/06/20 11:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,389
nielsville, minn.
Q
quickd100 Offline
master
quickd100  Offline
master
Q

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,389
nielsville, minn.
Cab my old machinist, Henry Simon, ( he's the guy that line honed and bushed the lifter bores in the Moparts engine masters entry years ago). Told me the same thing that the Mopar bb motors had terrible bearing alignment issues with the cam bearing bores. He would alignhone them and us locktite to keep the bearings from moving He showed me a motor he had done it on, the cam turned like it was on needlebearings

Last edited by quickd100; 01/06/20 11:58 PM.
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: quickd100] #2730694
01/07/20 12:46 AM
01/07/20 12:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,158
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Offline
Too Many Posts
slantzilla  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,158
Park Forest, IL
I was told the same thing back in the '80s.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: slantzilla] #2730725
01/07/20 09:16 AM
01/07/20 09:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,381
Abilene, Texas
F
fastmark Offline
master
fastmark  Offline
master
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,381
Abilene, Texas
Cab, I feel much better now. That was my SECOND big mopar lesson I learned. My 340 warranty motor in my AAR had the same problem. I took it to the wrong machine shop on advice from my old SS engine builder. This was before he opened up a full shop. I started the cam in with a hammer! It would not turn at all, fortunately. Lol! I took it back and they fixed it. My oem cam would fit but not the new one would. I was told back then it was simple core shift from all the heating and cooling cycles. My first mistake was the old pilot hole in the crankshaft was too small because I had an automatic crank. I just drove in the bronze bushing and shrunk the id. Like to have never figured that one out.

Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: Cab_Burge] #2730745
01/07/20 10:32 AM
01/07/20 10:32 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
J
jwb123 Offline
super stock
jwb123  Offline
super stock
J

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 873
Missouri
Yes, if you build any mopar engines, sometimes you have to hone or scrape the cam bearing bores. I use a dowel with a slot cut into it chucked into a drill. I fold some 320 sandpaper into the slot and turn drill at low speed. I usually tap the cam into the block lightly and get some markings so I know which bearings need attention. I have never done it, but some guys will take an old cam and cut a slot on each journal, and then file a relief on one side of the slot, tap in the cam and rotate, it acts like a reamer to scrape the bearings, then you can dress them with sand paper. I then use oily rags on a dowel to make sure I get all the residue from the bearings. Never had any issues with spun cam bearings. You just have to make sure you fit the camshaft as your first step in assembly. The only other thing is make sure when you tighten your cambearing installer on the bearing you get it good and snug, and make sure it stays snug as you drive them. I use a snap-on installer, and it sometimes likes to loosen as you drive the bearings in, if the driver gets loose on the bearings, they will shrink as you drive them in just a little.

Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: jwb123] #2730754
01/07/20 11:22 AM
01/07/20 11:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,853
Ontario, Canada
S
Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
Don't question me!
S

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,853
Ontario, Canada
I've had a few blocks over the years. Some had problems and some didn't. Its hit and miss. The '76 440 block I have now had no issues and you can spin the cam by the pin on the front.

Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: Stanton] #2730786
01/07/20 01:12 PM
01/07/20 01:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
there was a mention (on here) of notching the journals in a used cam with a hacksaw blade & useing it as a reamer


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: RapidRobert] #2730793
01/07/20 01:38 PM
01/07/20 01:38 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,961
Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX Offline
top fuel
B1MAXX  Offline
top fuel

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,961
Apollo, PA.
Different size bearing bores isn't just a Chrysler thing. BBC mark 4's are different too. Dart big m's come with a tech sheet that shows cam bearings to be standard BBC however they have all the bearing bores at 2.120, and there is a special number for those. My little rant. Most cam bearing tools you drive in with a hammer. Sometimes you will leave them a little funny hence the reaming/scraping begins. I have an older OTC tool that draws the bearings in with a bearing and a threaded nut. Once I learned the proper amount of Jiggle between the collet and bearing shell before installation things go much better now.

Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: Cab_Burge] #2730815
01/07/20 03:06 PM
01/07/20 03:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,729
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,729
Rio Linda, CA
Rick Ehrenberg has discussed this many times, according to him the factory align bored the cam bearings.


The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: John_Kunkel] #2730829
01/07/20 03:25 PM
01/07/20 03:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Rick Ehrenberg has discussed this many times, according to him the factory align bored the cam bearings.


I don’t know where I heard it...... and I have no way of knowing if it’s true or not, but I have seen enough weird stuff with factory Mopar cam tunnels that I believe it’s true.

My understanding is the bearings were sized in place, with a long 5 step reamer type of tool...... where all 5 bearings are cut at the same time.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: Cab_Burge] #2730837
01/07/20 03:51 PM
01/07/20 03:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
I Live Here
ZIPPY  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
I always figured was a cost savings of some kind.
Somehow maybe cheaper to make it work at the end of the line rather than from the get go.

I haven't built that many compared to the pros, but I have never seen a cam fit correctly on new bearings.
All that I have done were too tight and I had to monkey with them.

Bearing scraper and scotchbrite pads for me.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: John_Kunkel] #2730884
01/07/20 06:31 PM
01/07/20 06:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Michigan
A
A727Tflite Offline
master
A727Tflite  Offline
master
A

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Michigan
Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Rick Ehrenberg has discussed this many times, according to him the factory align bored the cam bearings.


This is fact. Up until I left the engine group the Trenton engine plant installed “green” cam bearings then machined them all at one time.
Green means “not finished to final size”.

The Kokomo Trans Plant did the same thing with all auto transmissions. Pump/converter bushing all the way back to the output shaft bushing and everything in between.

Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: A727Tflite] #2730887
01/07/20 06:51 PM
01/07/20 06:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here
fast68plymouth  Offline
I Live Here
F

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492
So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted by Transman
Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Rick Ehrenberg has discussed this many times, according to him the factory align bored the cam bearings.


This is fact. Up until I left the engine group the Trenton engine plant installed “green” cam bearings then machined them all at one time.
Green means “not finished to final size”.

The Kokomo Trans Plant did the same thing with all auto transmissions. Pump/converter bushing all the way back to the output shaft bushing and everything in between.


Were the cam bearings “bored” in place one at a time, or was the process more like one long tool with 5 different sizes, and all 5 bearings cut simultaneously?


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: fast68plymouth] #2730912
01/07/20 08:38 PM
01/07/20 08:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,853
Ontario, Canada
S
Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
Don't question me!
S

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,853
Ontario, Canada
Here ya go ...

5614511-aa1e53e7386c621edffcbc21e179722f.jpg
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: fast68plymouth] #2730925
01/07/20 09:36 PM
01/07/20 09:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Michigan
A
A727Tflite Offline
master
A727Tflite  Offline
master
A

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Michigan
Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Originally Posted by Transman
Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Rick Ehrenberg has discussed this many times, according to him the factory align bored the cam bearings.


This is fact. Up until I left the engine group the Trenton engine plant installed “green” cam bearings then machined them all at one time.
Green means “not finished to final size”.

The Kokomo Trans Plant did the same thing with all auto transmissions. Pump/converter bushing all the way back to the output shaft bushing and everything in between.


Were the cam bearings “bored” in place one at a time, or was the process more like one long tool with 5 different sizes, and all 5 bearings cut simultaneously?


I actually never saw the tooling or it being used but during a deep dive on some broken cam warranty issues the subject came up of bearing wear. In every example of a broken cam we saw the center two bearings heavily worn on the bottom. It was mentioned then of the process and tooling, one station to cut the bearings. As it turned out the cam installation station scratched the cam journals and those scratches wore the center two bearing bottoms causing the cam to be unsupported in the center. Every cam broke almost in the same spot.
This was on the FWD 3.3/3.8 engines. I was told this process was adapted from the B/RB process of the late 50’s.

Last edited by Transman; 01/07/20 09:39 PM.
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: Stanton] #2730968
01/07/20 11:29 PM
01/07/20 11:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline OP
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline OP
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted by Stanton
Here ya go ...

I use that Harbor freight Tool on my crankshaft scrapers for the five large oil drain back holes at the main webbing up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: Cab_Burge] #2731081
01/08/20 01:49 PM
01/08/20 01:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
I have always used an old cam with slots cut in it to relieve the offending bearings. The dress the bearing as needed and been good to go with no issues.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: Al_Alguire] #2731083
01/08/20 01:54 PM
01/08/20 01:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,729
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
Too Many Posts
John_Kunkel  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,729
Rio Linda, CA
Me too.

Cambream.jpg

The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: John_Kunkel] #2731102
01/08/20 02:23 PM
01/08/20 02:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Michigan
A
A727Tflite Offline
master
A727Tflite  Offline
master
A

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Michigan
Almost the same end result as what the plant did.

Re: B/ RB cam tunnel issues on proper sizes [Re: John_Kunkel] #2731198
01/08/20 06:48 PM
01/08/20 06:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,037
Mooresburg, Tn
'
'72CudaRacer Offline
top fuel
'72CudaRacer  Offline
top fuel
'

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,037
Mooresburg, Tn
Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Me too.


Looks like someone has been digging around in my shop. Looks EXACTLY like mine!

Brian

Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1