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Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: AndyF] #2729527
01/02/20 11:53 PM
01/02/20 11:53 PM
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Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline OP
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Yeah, Jeff is very familiar with file systems, etc. and has a lap top. He's also messed with a modified factory system (Ford 5.0, big cam, big injectors, big throttle body, and aftermarket manifold). He never quite got that one dialed in, but everything indicated that 30lb injectors were too big for a good idle. None of this scares either one of us (I've got greater computer experience) and right now he has the money to do this right on the fresh motor. We're also going hydraulic throwout bearing. He wants his wife to be able to jump in and drive it, from time to time. It will also be his weekend driver as he has a company truck for a daily.

I'd love to do this to my Barracuda, but I don't have the funds.

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #2729771
01/03/20 07:40 PM
01/03/20 07:40 PM
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North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
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Originally Posted by GoodysGotaCuda
The success is heavily dependent on your ability to either A) Understand how EFI works B) Your desire to know about how EFI works. The systems are sold as "plug it in, fire it up and go". While they're quite good, they require tuning if you want it to drive like a new-ish car.


Hmm. I go onto Holley's website and this is what I read:

Simple Calibration Wizard (Answer a few questions about your engine and it creates the base map, then starts tuning on its own!) - NO laptop required!
Self-tuning ECU means you don't have to be a computer/tuning wiz to have EFI!

But yet I read here I need a minor in IT to get it to work. It's not a question of whether I could do it or not, more like why should I have to? I recall the dealership training when the Lean Burn was introduced. Admittedly, it just controlled spark advance but I remember the instructor stressing that there were no maps or arrays in the system, the operating point was a unique variable determined by the inputs. So now 44 years later with all the advances in solid state technology and closed loop control with a number of sensors we are faced with the need to use a laptop to optimize a system? I always put more faith in the user group than the vendor (as Packard put it “Ask The Man Who Owns One” ) but it seems to me that Holley is either stretching the truth or outright lying. This thread has shaken my faith in aftermarket EFI keeping in mind that a vendor can use a standard configuration for thousands of cars without problems. shruggy


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: 6PakBee] #2729774
01/03/20 07:59 PM
01/03/20 07:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by GoodysGotaCuda
The success is heavily dependent on your ability to either A) Understand how EFI works B) Your desire to know about how EFI works. The systems are sold as "plug it in, fire it up and go". While they're quite good, they require tuning if you want it to drive like a new-ish car.


Hmm. I go onto Holley's website and this is what I read:

Simple Calibration Wizard (Answer a few questions about your engine and it creates the base map, then starts tuning on its own!) - NO laptop required!
Self-tuning ECU means you don't have to be a computer/tuning wiz to have EFI!

But yet I read here I need a minor in IT to get it to work. It's not a question of whether I could do it or not, more like why should I have to? I recall the dealership training when the Lean Burn was introduced. Admittedly, it just controlled spark advance but I remember the instructor stressing that there were no maps or arrays in the system, the operating point was a unique variable determined by the inputs. So now 44 years later with all the advances in solid state technology and closed loop control with a number of sensors we are faced with the need to use a laptop to optimize a system? I always put more faith in the user group than the vendor (as Packard put it “Ask The Man Who Owns One” ) but it seems to me that Holley is either stretching the truth or outright lying. This thread has shaken my faith in aftermarket EFI keeping in mind that a vendor can use a standard configuration for thousands of cars without problems. shruggy


I didn't mention anything about a laptop or a minor in IT.

Can you tune these systems a bit more with a laptop? Sure!
Is it necessary? NO!

In fewer words, what I said was, you need to understand the basics of EFI and how it works. Period. The installation wizard lets you plug in some basic inputs about your engine and it creates a basic VE base table and tunes from there. You will need to make adjustments to the parameters, via the handheld controller, to dial it in and tune it. This isn't scary, it's just different than what you may be used to. Trust me, adjusting timing with a few clicks is way easier than popping the hood, loosening the fastener way back there, dragging the timing light out and running the engine as the fan blasts hot air in your face...

I feel that the basics of EFI tuning are just what I said, how an IAC works, acceleration enrichment [think accelerator pump], installing the system so that the rpm sensor wires are not sitting on plug wires and giving erratic readings, etc. Holley is in the business of selling units, they do a better job of trying to educate users more than most, but some understanding is required. YouTube is loaded with helpful videos that give you the basic knowledge to be successful.

EFI is not hard, but like anything new to you, you do need to have a drive to understand it. Pushing buttons on things you don't understand isn't going to help.


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #2729791
01/03/20 08:36 PM
01/03/20 08:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666
North Dakota
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Last edited by 6PakBee; 01/03/20 09:53 PM. Reason: Deleted After I Cooled Off

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Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: 6PakBee] #2729830
01/03/20 09:40 PM
01/03/20 09:40 PM
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Oregon
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by GoodysGotaCuda
The success is heavily dependent on your ability to either A) Understand how EFI works B) Your desire to know about how EFI works. The systems are sold as "plug it in, fire it up and go". While they're quite good, they require tuning if you want it to drive like a new-ish car.


Hmm. I go onto Holley's website and this is what I read:

Simple Calibration Wizard (Answer a few questions about your engine and it creates the base map, then starts tuning on its own!) - NO laptop required!
Self-tuning ECU means you don't have to be a computer/tuning wiz to have EFI!

But yet I read here I need a minor in IT to get it to work. It's not a question of whether I could do it or not, more like why should I have to? I recall the dealership training when the Lean Burn was introduced. Admittedly, it just controlled spark advance but I remember the instructor stressing that there were no maps or arrays in the system, the operating point was a unique variable determined by the inputs. So now 44 years later with all the advances in solid state technology and closed loop control with a number of sensors we are faced with the need to use a laptop to optimize a system? I always put more faith in the user group than the vendor (as Packard put it “Ask The Man Who Owns One” ) but it seems to me that Holley is either stretching the truth or outright lying. This thread has shaken my faith in aftermarket EFI keeping in mind that a vendor can use a standard configuration for thousands of cars without problems. shruggy


The Sniper internal programming makes a lot of assumptions. If you have a very generic car (350 chevy crate engine for example) the out of box Sniper will work okay. Most of what I work on is 600 to 700 hp big block Mopar engines with performance cams. The default programming will not work very well on an engine like that. It really isn't much different than a carb. If you have a stock 350 crate engine an out of the box carb will work. If you have a race engine you most likely need to have the carb tuned by a professional. EFI is the same way.

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: AndyF] #2729837
01/03/20 09:55 PM
01/03/20 09:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666
North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
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Originally Posted by AndyF
The Sniper internal programming makes a lot of assumptions. If you have a very generic car (350 chevy crate engine for example) the out of box Sniper will work okay. Most of what I work on is 600 to 700 hp big block Mopar engines with performance cams. The default programming will not work very well on an engine like that. It really isn't much different than a carb. If you have a stock 350 crate engine an out of the box carb will work. If you have a race engine you most likely need to have the carb tuned by a professional. EFI is the same way.


AndyF, thank you for an intelligent answer to my comments.


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: 6PakBee] #2729923
01/04/20 11:27 AM
01/04/20 11:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,239
north of coder
moparx Offline
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someone mentioned the lean burn system, and that reminded me of timing input.
is the lean burn distributor the one to use in a sniper system because it has just the reluctor/pickup[s] internally ?
beer

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: moparx] #2729980
01/04/20 01:43 PM
01/04/20 01:43 PM
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Pattison Texas
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Originally Posted by moparx
someone mentioned the lean burn system, and that reminded me of timing input.
is the lean burn distributor the one to use in a sniper system because it has just the reluctor/pickup[s] internally ?
beer


I suggest using the plug & play Holley dist. for the Sniper.


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: moparx] #2729983
01/04/20 01:50 PM
01/04/20 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by moparx
someone mentioned the lean burn system, and that reminded me of timing input.
is the lean burn distributor the one to use in a sniper system because it has just the reluctor/pickup[s] internally ?
beer


No. Throw away that old stuff. It is the wrong type of signal for EFI.

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: AndyF] #2730378
01/05/20 07:56 PM
01/05/20 07:56 PM
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Balt. Md
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383man Offline
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We put the Holley Sniper on my sons Dart and we love it. Its worked fine and we like how much programming we can do and change on it. Ron

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: 383man] #2730550
01/06/20 02:16 PM
01/06/20 02:16 PM
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north of coder
moparx Offline
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thanks andy, charlie, and ron. eventual plans call for EFI on my charger, hence the in tank electric pump.
plus the fact my AC compressor is where the mechanical pump used to live.
a sniper system is my choice when i get there, but i have to get the car running first.
as to the lean burn distributor, just trying to use up some of my accumulated "stuff" [if possible].
beer

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: moparx] #2730572
01/06/20 04:01 PM
01/06/20 04:01 PM
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Andy - in your opinion what is the right application these days for multiport injectoion, or have these TBI's advanced far enough that there's not much application except for max effort engines?


70 Sport Fury
68 Charger
69 Coronet
72 RR
Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: furious70] #2730580
01/06/20 04:18 PM
01/06/20 04:18 PM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Originally Posted by furious70
Andy - in your opinion what is the right application these days for multiport injectoion, or have these TBI's advanced far enough that there's not much application except for max effort engines?


Port injection gives you better fuel control. Cylinders can be trimmed individually if you run sequential and because you are injecting right at the back of the intake valve, you no longer have to depend on airflow to deliver the fuel. How much better this all is I think is not so much measurable on a dyno as it is in drivability and efficiency. From an emissions standpoint it will run slightly cleaner and should depending on application burn less fuel, not enough less to pay for it in this lifetime but less.

Kevin

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: Twostick] #2730590
01/06/20 05:15 PM
01/06/20 05:15 PM
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I have no empirical evidence but I wonder if that's actually true in the case where you convert a carb intake (designed as wet now dry) as I did for my turbocharged 383. Definitely understand the per cylinder tuning you can do and I've never done it on mine, since it's not a max effort build.


70 Sport Fury
68 Charger
69 Coronet
72 RR
Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: furious70] #2730612
01/06/20 07:32 PM
01/06/20 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by furious70
Andy - in your opinion what is the right application these days for multiport injectoion, or have these TBI's advanced far enough that there's not much application except for max effort engines?


I wouldn't put aftermarket multiport injection on anything where I could use a single throttle body. The Holley Sniper Xflow is good for up to 800 hp so that should work just fine for almost all street cars and most bracket type cars. I'd go with multiport for engines over 1000 hp. On engines in the 750 to 1000 hp range I might go multiport or I might use dual throttle body on a dual quad intake. Just depends on what the guy wants, how big the budget it, what the options are, etc.

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: Twostick] #2730613
01/06/20 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Twostick
Originally Posted by furious70
Andy - in your opinion what is the right application these days for multiport injectoion, or have these TBI's advanced far enough that there's not much application except for max effort engines?


Port injection gives you better fuel control. Cylinders can be trimmed individually if you run sequential and because you are injecting right at the back of the intake valve, you no longer have to depend on airflow to deliver the fuel. How much better this all is I think is not so much measurable on a dyno as it is in drivability and efficiency. From an emissions standpoint it will run slightly cleaner and should depending on application burn less fuel, not enough less to pay for it in this lifetime but less.

Kevin


That is true from an OEM standpoint but I don't think it is true for cars that people on Moparts build. Typical engine built by a Moparts member is going to be a street car or a bracket car using 1970's technology. A throttle body setup like the Sniper works just fine in that case and is a very economical and fairly simple solution. The average Moparts member is not going to be able to take advantage of anything that multiport injection offers.

If you ask me to design an OEM system then sure, I'll pick multiport.

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: AndyF] #2730619
01/06/20 08:03 PM
01/06/20 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by furious70
Andy - in your opinion what is the right application these days for multiport injectoion, or have these TBI's advanced far enough that there's not much application except for max effort engines?


I wouldn't put aftermarket multiport injection on anything where I could use a single throttle body. The Holley Sniper Xflow is good for up to 800 hp so that should work just fine for almost all street cars and most bracket type cars. I'd go with multiport for engines over 1000 hp. On engines in the 750 to 1000 hp range I might go multiport or I might use dual throttle body on a dual quad intake. Just depends on what the guy wants, how big the budget it, what the options are, etc.


I LOVE my Hilborn EFI

81039595_2715135148545177_1183456883835404288_n.jpg81527092_2715135221878503_167428644220698624_n.jpg

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: AndyF] #2730628
01/06/20 08:21 PM
01/06/20 08:21 PM
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Michigan
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Andy, do you think multiport would be worth the expense when using a manifold with unequal runners like the slant six?


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: MarkZ] #2730656
01/06/20 09:59 PM
01/06/20 09:59 PM
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I wouldn't put multiport injection on a daily driver /6. Maybe if a guy is doing a serious race car and is making a bunch of power then it might be worth it. Aftermarket multiport injection just isn't very cost effective these days. The equation might change down the road.

I did some dyno testing today for a guy who is switching from an older multiport system over to a Sniper. A new Sniper system is cheaper than repairing his multiport system so he is switching. There isn't any difference in power so the guy doesn't see any reason for all the extra complexity.

Re: Which fuel injection??? [Re: AndyF] #2730766
01/07/20 11:57 AM
01/07/20 11:57 AM
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Good info and perspective if my Classic FAST ever konks out. Back when I did my efi there was no TBI option that was workable with boost.


70 Sport Fury
68 Charger
69 Coronet
72 RR
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