Back in 2013, I had a very reputable Midwest shop, known for its axles, narrow my B-body 8-3/4 housing to A-body width and true it up, install a back brace, and put the perches in the stock A-body position. The car has five miles on dirt roads, remember.
Today I was installing traction bars. As I took off the left shock plate... the perch fell right off. They had made a decent looking weld with absolutely no penetration into the axle tube! The right side has a large crack too, and I'm sure it's not any better attached.
So I spent some more time removing the housing from the car. Off to the local welding shop tomorrow (they DO know how to weld). I sure hope the same moron didn't do the back brace, or worse yet, the ends...
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2730380 01/05/2008:06 PM01/05/2008:06 PM
The pictures of those welds show a total lack of penetration including the ones that appear to be on your back brace ? You should make sure whomever does the re- welding has a jig to keep the housing straight as it WILL bow with the heat.
Weld looks very cold. It's really frustrating to pay someone for poor work. I did that not too long at a muffler shop that was tasked to do something simple.
Fortunately with a leaf-spring suspension, the entire rear can't come out of the car if the perches break off. But it could spin in the U-bolts... break the rear U-joint and probably the pinion & case, beat the #$% out of the floor pan, possibly damage the four-speed. So I'm glad I found it now, rather than on a hard launch someday!
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2730411 01/05/2010:23 PM01/05/2010:23 PM
Some times the factories don't do much better. My brother in law bought a 78 Ramcharger brand new. 10 years later he was using it off road and the factory welded spring perch separated from the axle housing. The Ramcharger went sideways, and slid back down the hill he was climbing. Fortunately the RC didn't roll over and test the factory roll bar. Same issue, cold weld.
I think the problem is compounded by the guys that cry out about warping a housing when welding the perches on, and too many try to avoid the supposedly warpage by turning down the amperage when welding. I can say I've welded a lot of spring perches onto axle tubes in my days, and have never had a problem with warped axle tubes. Weld the perches on with the correct amperage and be done with it. The small amount of warp that may occur will cause a lot less damage then the damage a failed weld will cause. Gene
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: poorboy]
#2730433 01/05/2011:42 PM01/05/2011:42 PM
Poorboy, you nailed it, too much penetration and you have a very nice warped housing, too little ,and you get to post on Moparts.
Its also the perfect storm for warpage, all the welding on one side only of a tube , and with a thicker piece of steel that needs more heat then base metal for welding
The weld IMO should have been wrapped around the perch ends, and I suspect this weld failure was visible upon close inspection over time, there was a warning/
the main lesson here, check all welds, regularly, if the are important..
Nobody is perfect.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: jcc]
#2730438 01/06/2012:12 AM01/06/2012:12 AM
Baloney. The main lesson is that a well-known rear end place with a good reputation, and that I paid a significant amount of money to do it right, screwed up! This is a routine job for them and I should not have to follow along second-guessing the professionals. Weld the perches, weld the back brace, then put the housing ends on, and everything lines up. But thanks for the victim-blaming.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2730447 01/06/2012:48 AM01/06/2012:48 AM
Baloney. The main lesson is that a well-known rear end place with a good reputation, and that I paid a significant amount of money to do it right, screwed up! This is a routine job for them and I should not have to follow along second-guessing the professionals. Weld the perches, weld the back brace, then put the housing ends on, and everything lines up. But thanks for the victim-blaming.
name the shop man...
It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
Baloney. The main lesson is that a well-known rear end place with a good reputation, and that I paid a significant amount of money to do it right, screwed up! This is a routine job for them and I should not have to follow along second-guessing the professionals. Weld the perches, weld the back brace, then put the housing ends on, and everything lines up. But thanks for the victim-blaming.
-------------Exactly, Whoever "welded" that is not a welder and could never be. employed as a welder. That weld is to cold and the guy who did do is inexperienced. This is the problem with using MIG, workers pick up a MIG gun do some poor welding and think they know the trade, ive seen it more times than I can remember, Id have stick wielded that, wrapped the ends as another member mentioned. The tube would rip off before the weld breaks.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: poorboy]
#2730480 01/06/2010:08 AM01/06/2010:08 AM
Some times the factories don't do much better. My brother in law bought a 78 Ramcharger brand new. 10 years later he was using it off road and the factory welded spring perch separated from the axle housing. The Ramcharger went sideways, and slid back down the hill he was climbing. Fortunately the RC didn't roll over and test the factory roll bar. Same issue, cold weld.
When I bought my 1977 Volare new in '76, the first time I changed oil I was shocked. The K-member halves were welded together with what appeared to be the MIG process and there were literally hundreds of "starts" the full length of the weld. Looked like a pincushion. That and undercoating on the bottom of the dash....this was not Chrysler's finest hour.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: abodyjoe]
#2730494 01/06/2010:58 AM01/06/2010:58 AM
I had mine heli-arced by a guy who used to weld up top fuel frames. I have access to a mig welder and know people who weld much better than me, but sought out the best guy and welding setup I could find for that job. If those come loose it can tear up a lot of stuff.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2730529 01/06/2001:01 PM01/06/2001:01 PM
Baloney. The main lesson is that a well-known rear end place with a good reputation, and that I paid a significant amount of money to do it right, screwed up! This is a routine job for them and I should not have to follow along second-guessing the professionals. Weld the perches, weld the back brace, then put the housing ends on, and everything lines up. But thanks for the victim-blaming.
Everybody lives in their own world, some smaller then others I guess. Trust but verify is in mine.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: Neil]
#2730540 01/06/2001:20 PM01/06/2001:20 PM
I picked up my homemade subframe connectors this morning at the local weld & fab shop. They did a nice job welding the front plates on, and powder coated them chassis-black too, total of $75.
I dropped off the rear end housing - they were appalled at the quality of the perch "welds" too. They do know how to jig and clamp rears to prevent warping (and the back brace should help prevent any movement). Should be done tomorrow
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2730544 01/06/2001:43 PM01/06/2001:43 PM
i would rather have a hot weld with a hint of undercut, instead of a nice looking one just laying on top. the old lincoln "tombstone" welders are great if you do stick welding. i bought mine on sale for $19.95 [with a free wheel kit] back around 1968 from the old aldon's catalog.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: moparx]
#2730591 01/06/2005:16 PM01/06/2005:16 PM
A loose and/or spinning housing can split a factory fuel tank pretty easily and create a substantial fire. Nothing to fool with. Takes a pretty decent welder to make enough heat to get that stuff put together correctly.
A welded brace WILL bow the housing regardless being in a jig. The trick is to pull and hold the housing in the opposite direction the correct amount when welding it. Once cool, it will relax back to where it should be, if it was done correctly.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2730634 01/06/2008:51 PM01/06/2008:51 PM
I am also continually amazed how many guys think their little 110 volt welder they got from Harbor Freight will do the job just fine. I ran a welding shop for 25 years. if you came into my shop it was welded with a Mig welder. The old Lincoln tombstone sat back in the corner, under the bench. I would say probably 80% of the work I did was repair broken poorly done welds. This is nothing new. Gene
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: poorboy]
#2730647 01/06/2009:33 PM01/06/2009:33 PM
This is why I don't weld, a mans got to know his limitations.
Well said, welding and painting are things I only do when it's realistic for me, and usually only when both are hidden from sight or can't really fail.
I think the thread makes sense in terms of how bad the quality was for a shop that should do better.
But it doesn't mean someone couldn't do a good job on them at their home, even if they're not an expert welder. I think especially back in the day, more often then not people did this in their garage or driveway without the perches falling off some time later, and without ever seeing any effect of a warped housing.
It's not that hard if you have the right settings and prep. That makes what this shop put out there even more egregious.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: Exit1965]
#2730678 01/06/2011:32 PM01/06/2011:32 PM
I think the thread makes sense in terms of how bad the quality was for a shop that should do better.
But it doesn't mean someone couldn't do a good job on them at their home, even if they're not an expert welder. I think especially back in the day, more often then not people did this in their garage or driveway without the perches falling off some time later, and without ever seeing any effect of a warped housing.
It's not that hard if you have the right settings and prep. That makes what this shop put out there even more egregious.
Thank you... that is exactly the point I was trying to make The local shop will be doing it tomorrow. As someone already mentioned, welding and painting are best left to others. Definitely in my case.
Incidentally, I asked Cass (Dr. Diff) about this mess and he said, "I would break the other spring perch off and weld new ones on. You won't warp the tubes". I figure he knows what he's talking about
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: A39Coronet]
#2730683 01/06/2011:46 PM01/06/2011:46 PM
My friend tore the spring perches off his '85 W-150 while doing a burn out. The pinion spun straight up and separated the driveshaft at the slip joint. The OEM welds did not penetrate the tubes. I'm surprised it didn't happen years earlier.
My friend tore the spring perches off his '85 W-150 while doing a burn out. The pinion spun straight up and separated the driveshaft at the slip joint. The OEM welds did not penetrate the tubes. I'm surprised it didn't happen years earlier.
Whatever Dr D says concerning anything automotive is gospel for me. A real gentleman. He helped me when everyone couldn't The weld as posted if you notice did not penetrate the edges of the perch. That edge should not be visible as the weld should have penetrated it. A common mistake of beginers is not "catching" what your welding. In the case of theses perches in addition to being way to cold which results in no penetration, whoever welded theses perches just played down a bead next to the perch. He had almost no weld on the perch which shows me he wasn't watching what he was doing. Ive told so many guys to catch both parts. Even if the person who welded this was inexperienced if he or she had the amperage turned up and caught the perches, the weld most likely would have held. Anything welded on any vehicle driven on roadways has to be properly done, this thread is a perfect example of this. While im no Mopar expert, I am a journeyman union Boilermaker or was as im retired now
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: Kippy]
#2731069 01/08/2012:38 PM01/08/2012:38 PM
I have looked up your invoice to see what all work we did for you. The invoice and paperwork does not show anything about us installing perches on the rear end. We only removed your old perches. I'm not sure who welded the perches on your housing but we have no record of doing it. I have attached all paperwork including the note you sent with the housing about what you needed done. Please see the attachments!
I have the same invoices, having saved every receipt for 22 years. Nothing showing any welding/moving perches, and it only makes sense that if the housing were being narrowed, back-braced, ends cut off and rewelded for alignment, that I'd have had them do the perches then! Very strange
Anyhow the local fab shop removed both, cleaned them up and re-welded them (securely) and I hung it back under the Dart. Next week the chunk will return and I'll reinstall the axles. Hopefully everything will just slide in
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2731084 01/08/2001:57 PM01/08/2001:57 PM
I have looked up your invoice to see what all work we did for you. The invoice and paperwork does not show anything about us installing perches on the rear end. We only removed your old perches. I'm not sure who welded the perches on your housing but we have no record of doing it. I have attached all paperwork including the note you sent with the housing about what you needed done. Please see the attachments!
I have the same invoices, having saved every receipt for 22 years. Nothing showing any welding/moving perches, and it only makes sense that if the housing were being narrowed, back-braced, ends cut off and rewelded for alignment, that I'd have had them do the perches then! Very strange
Anyhow the local fab shop removed both, cleaned them up and re-welded them (securely) and I hung it back under the Dart. Next week the chunk will return and I'll reinstall the axles. Hopefully everything will just slide in
IMO, a giveaway would be if any of the paperwork shows an specific (vs say Narrow "X" inches) dim for the housing. If so they also would likely incldue a specific dim for the ctr to ctr perch location. If the Perch dim is not on an invoice that had a new housing dim, I would lean towards the feeling your original vendor did not reattach the perches, some one else did. I have in the past welded up a housing, and left the perches off, in order to test fit and to get the perch exact dim/location and angle, and then welded them later, so two welders involved in your saga is possible as I see it. First vendor might need an internet "nevermind".
edir: on further reflection, ttis new info might explain a lot, for instance, why the perches were not prepped (45Deg chamber), that the weld was done on the car, over head, out of position, and restricted access, the weld area might have been contaminated by paint/rust, all items a pro welder would have resisted, and a novice would not.
Last edited by jcc; 01/08/2002:35 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2731109 01/08/2002:37 PM01/08/2002:37 PM
My factory weld broke like that. If you run something like Cal-Tracs or similar there is lots of extra load on the perches. The perches Calvert Racing sells are well priced and super strong, no worries once those are properly welded on. Even welded on right the stock perches can fold over on the back.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: Bad340fish]
#2731203 01/08/2007:04 PM01/08/2007:04 PM
If the "quality' of the welds on the back brace and housing ends look like the perches then there is your answer. Would not surprise me if they did screw up to not take ownership of it.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: Neil]
#2731225 01/08/2008:04 PM01/08/2008:04 PM
That did occur to me also, but the housing ends do look properly welded. And so far they have not fallen off.
Hard to tell with the back brace - it looks good except for the end tacks (that you noted in the pics), but it is definitely possible to have a nice looking bead just lying on the surface. I'll have to see if it cracks or pops off with a few good launches.
Anyhow, there's no way I would have told them to only "remove the perches"... how was I supposed to put the housing back under the car then?
Although I'd have rather not spent the $$$ by forgetting the gear lube and ruining a brand new Dr. Diff center section, the silver lining is that I found the defective welds before anything spun and did ugly things. I had planned to install the traction bars at some later date after putting some miles on the car...
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2731477 01/09/2003:58 PM01/09/2003:58 PM
Anyhow, there's no way I would have told them to only "remove the perches"... how was I supposed to put the housing back under the car then?
Bolt it in unwelded, determine and set the pinion angle, then tack the housing to the perches. Remove housing and take to a bona-fide welder to finish welding the perches.
69 road runner A12 ex-racer 71 Duster w/ a 400
Shiny paint causes stress.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: Bob Stinson]
#2731481 01/09/2004:11 PM01/09/2004:11 PM
Thanks, but I meant it to be clearly a rhetorical question. I already knew what my pinion angle was, and didn't want it changed, just the perches moved from stock B-body, to A-body with 3" spring relocation.
Re: I thought they knew how to weld
[Re: DrCharles]
#2731487 01/09/2004:39 PM01/09/2004:39 PM
Thanks, but I meant it to be clearly a rhetorical question. I already knew what my pinion angle was, and didn't want it changed, just the perches moved from stock B-body, to A-body with 3" spring relocation.
No experienced fab/weld shop would relocate the perches only based on the above info, and additionally, they would want it (angle in degrees and perch ctr to ctr dim and if any offset is desired) in writing, to eliminate potential call backs. The members previous reply on tack welding is the tried and true method.
Seems like the story is still missing some details, and since I'm newly on the OP's Ignore list, I don't have any issue with "pulling the curtain back".
So nobody quote me here.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.