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BB Mopar and Procharger questions #2716471
11/16/19 03:56 PM
11/16/19 03:56 PM
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Dragula Offline OP
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I am in the planning phase currently. Talked with a couple of piston manufacturers and I have a 383, 400, & 440 block available. All are stock blocks. No unattainable after market $8000 block for this build.

It will get a girdle and all ARP bolts and studs, billet caps, and good machine work. I have already pushed one to 773hp so far in an NA application....

The upper goal is to get to 18psi with my bracket car. Start out at 10psi and water meth at 4psi and a second jet at 10psi and tune from there with a 4150 carb on gas.

So getting a blower piston for a Mopar stroker with a 75cc head seems to be the tough part. I know the upper ring has to be moved down in a blower piston and running a stroker puts the pin up too high in most Mopar combo's.

Talked with JE and really liked what we came up with so far......400 stroked to 470 with a 3.915 crank and 6.535 rod gives them enough room to put the rings where they are needed. I was going to do a 383/496, but there is no where for the rings to move down. So far this seems to be the best plan.

What head gaskets should I be looking at, copper, MLS, etc? And should I build it at 8.5:1 or 9:1? Seems 9:1 is the goal right now.


'71 Duster Pump Gas 512LD 2013 Mod Gas Winner GRS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNMPXgRryws (6.08 at 112mph) (9.60 at +137mph)(+775hp)

'70 Cuda, Plan C....605 Hemi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph)(823hp and still tuning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2716502
11/16/19 05:43 PM
11/16/19 05:43 PM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Would the 440 block not be the better choice to get the piston you want? I know the conventional wisdom is that the B block has shorter stronger cylinders but what about 8 sleeves, $$$ notwithstanding?

My unscientific opinion has always been that detonation is what kills these blocks, not the power they make and I base that on members here that have turbo combos that claimed over 1000 HP and they don't hatch. The biggest difference in a boosted tune up and an NA is the timing, usually at least 10 degrees less on a boosted combo which should address detonation and probably makes max cylinder pressure a good bit ATDC too which can't hurt.

Way above my pay grade in any case but I'll be watching this.

Kevin

Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2716517
11/16/19 06:26 PM
11/16/19 06:26 PM
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What fuel are you going to use in this motor, pump gas or race gas work
It does make a lot of difference on what compression ratio to build.
If pump gas I would start around 6 to 1 compression ratio and go from there on the Snow kit tuning twocents
If C16 or Q16 then pump it up to 9.0 to 1 or so, that should make it have more power down low work up

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/16/19 06:27 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Cab_Burge] #2716540
11/16/19 07:45 PM
11/16/19 07:45 PM
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in the middle
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dodger mope Offline
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hellcat engine

9.5-1 comp
11 psi boost
92 octane

Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: dodger mope] #2716591
11/16/19 11:15 PM
11/16/19 11:15 PM
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Dragula Offline OP
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93 octane pump gas.....Figuring 9:1 using water meth, two jets, one at 4psi, and the other at 10psi....Timing will be full 32-34*

This is the setup from The Super Charger Store....using an F1R


'71 Duster Pump Gas 512LD 2013 Mod Gas Winner GRS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNMPXgRryws (6.08 at 112mph) (9.60 at +137mph)(+775hp)

'70 Cuda, Plan C....605 Hemi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph)(823hp and still tuning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2716611
11/17/19 02:29 AM
11/17/19 02:29 AM
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Cab_Burge Offline
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18 lbs. of boost is not pump gas pressures, NO WAY down
Good luck luck


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Cab_Burge] #2716622
11/17/19 08:21 AM
11/17/19 08:21 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,483
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
18 lbs. of boost is not pump gas pressures, NO WAY down
Good luck luck


Depends on your definition of pump gas. You might get away with it on E85 but I don't see it happening with that kind of timing unless you have a timing controller capable of pulling it back under boost.

Kevin

Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Twostick] #2716642
11/17/19 09:58 AM
11/17/19 09:58 AM
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Dragula Offline OP
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Dragula  Offline OP
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And this is why I do not come on here much, you guys are all worried about the timing and the boost, and I have built anything yet..........I need the build ideas, the rest is the learning curve, and just for the record....Why don't you call the SuperCharger Store, and get info.....That is what they told me, I figured they build hundreds of these a year, and they were very confident....Figured I would start at 10psi this summer, but I need to know how to build the engine......

I see guys building stock block LS engines to 60psi, so 18psi does not seem like a huge deal. In fact, I was going to call these guys and talk to them about the gasket issue....and go from there and call Comtec..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfL7WwSAeRk


'71 Duster Pump Gas 512LD 2013 Mod Gas Winner GRS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNMPXgRryws (6.08 at 112mph) (9.60 at +137mph)(+775hp)

'70 Cuda, Plan C....605 Hemi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph)(823hp and still tuning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2716644
11/17/19 10:03 AM
11/17/19 10:03 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,352
New York
polyspheric Offline
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That's the site that calculates your new compression ratio under boost as (ATM + PSI) ÷ ATM × CR?
And it's still wrong...


Boffin Emeritus
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2716655
11/17/19 10:33 AM
11/17/19 10:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,510
West Plains, MO
DrCharles Online content
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Quote
And this is why I do not come on here much, you guys are all worried about the timing and the boost, and I have built anything yet..........I need the build ideas, the rest is the learning curve


Sorry you took offense to everyone's attempts to help. Our advice is trying to save you money, time and frustration if your "learning curve" results in melted pistons, blown head gaskets, etc. I have been through this over many years experimenting with my BMW factory turbo (and intercooled) 3.5 liter six ("semi-hemi" head). After much experimentation, I learned the hard way that 93 octane will work with 15 psi boost and a static 8:1 CR (good forged pistons) and 35 timing only with an MSD boost retard unit set to about 0.75 deg/psi retard, which maxes out at 15 deg. So really only running about 23 timing at full boost. Then the exhaust temp became the limiting factor (peaking near 1600F which is pushing it even with Inconel valves).

The number may vary with your larger diameter wedge chamber but the principles are the same. Is your Procharger setup going to have a large intercooler? It should.
I also recommend reading Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" cover-to-cover before you buy anything, or MacInnes' "Turbocharging", or both.

Sure, you can push things a bit more with water/methanol injection, but you'd better have safety devices in case the tank runs dry or the pump fails while you're at WOT.
The rule of administering new drugs is "start low, go slow". Same with boost. Best of luck! up

Last edited by DrCharles; 11/17/19 10:33 AM.
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: DrCharles] #2716751
11/17/19 01:51 PM
11/17/19 01:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
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Southern Alberta
Uberpube Offline
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I'd build it 8.0:1, on a boosted motor, the lower the compression ratio, the larger the motor is effectively, lower the compression ratio, and use a shorter block to maintain rigidity.

Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Uberpube] #2716823
11/17/19 05:49 PM
11/17/19 05:49 PM
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Warren, MI
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Jerry Offline
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If using a wedge head like anything besides a hemi, I’d build a stroked 383 if going big block, you want a small chamber so flame propagation will ignite the mixture and not predetonation


Superior Design Concepts
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Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: DrCharles] #2716840
11/17/19 06:27 PM
11/17/19 06:27 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 10,823
Taxes R-US, NY
Dragula Offline OP
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Dragula  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DrCharles
Quote
And this is why I do not come on here much, you guys are all worried about the timing and the boost, and I have built anything yet..........I need the build ideas, the rest is the learning curve


Sorry you took offense to everyone's attempts to help. Our advice is trying to save you money, time and frustration if your "learning curve" results in melted pistons, blown head gaskets, etc. I have been through this over many years experimenting with my BMW factory turbo (and intercooled) 3.5 liter six ("semi-hemi" head). After much experimentation, I learned the hard way that 93 octane will work with 15 psi boost and a static 8:1 CR (good forged pistons) and 35 timing only with an MSD boost retard unit set to about 0.75 deg/psi retard, which maxes out at 15 deg. So really only running about 23 timing at full boost. Then the exhaust temp became the limiting factor (peaking near 1600F which is pushing it even with Inconel valves).

The number may vary with your larger diameter wedge chamber but the principles are the same. Is your Procharger setup going to have a large intercooler? It should.
I also recommend reading Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" cover-to-cover before you buy anything, or MacInnes' "Turbocharging", or both.

Sure, you can push things a bit more with water/methanol injection, but you'd better have safety devices in case the tank runs dry or the pump fails while you're at WOT.
The rule of administering new drugs is "start low, go slow". Same with boost. Best of luck! up


Well its going to be 93 with water meth and full timing.....Might start with race fuel and water meth, but at 10psi I should not need it....As far as cubes, I am happy with the 400/470 combo that JE and I worked out. Lots of room for the rings where they need to go. Head gaskets and rods are my two big questions, and once I figure out those, I will pull the trigger on the pistons. and then the rest of the bottom end after I get those. Cam will be interesting too, not sure who to call on that one either yet. It will be a Comp solid roller though.

https://www.procharger.com/faq

"And while a reduction in timing can save a motor from detonation, the excessive heat which was causing the detonation is still present. Intercooling, on the other hand, actually removes the heat which causes detonation, and allows higher boost levels to be safely run with full timing on pump gas. This produces the maximum benefit in terms of both horsepower gains and engine protection, without any additional maintenance or hassle."

" For carbureted engines with compression ratios of 9:1 or less and boost levels in the 8-14 psi range, pump gasoline works very well"


'71 Duster Pump Gas 512LD 2013 Mod Gas Winner GRS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNMPXgRryws (6.08 at 112mph) (9.60 at +137mph)(+775hp)

'70 Cuda, Plan C....605 Hemi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph)(823hp and still tuning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2716901
11/17/19 08:15 PM
11/17/19 08:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 61
ma.
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duspan Offline
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you should call steve morris or bullet cams they know their stuff?

Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: duspan] #2716999
11/18/19 12:39 AM
11/18/19 12:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,415
SoCal
ou812 Offline
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I have a customer that went thru 3 engine builds before he finally listened to me about E-85 fuel instead of pump gas/water injection. He took Bob's advice at the Supercharger store and tried like hell to run pump gas and water injection...was told it would be fine at 12psi...3 builds later and he's finally on E-85 making over 900HP using the P series blower!

You don't have to take anyone's advice, it's your build but I HIGHLY recommend you re think your fuel.


Brian Hafliger
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2717022
11/18/19 06:50 AM
11/18/19 06:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,910
Milwaukee WI
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TRENDZ Offline
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Milwaukee WI
470 all the way. Low compression 8:1 ish. Pump gas is only a problem if you aren’t intercooled, have poor timing controls, and/or poor mixtures.
A fraction of the money saved on the block should go to an efi system with COP capabilities. 18 psi is easily doable with precise fuel/ timing controls.
If you run a distributor / carb you will fail.
I used billet steel bbc rods in mine from Crower.


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: ou812] #2717222
11/18/19 02:44 PM
11/18/19 02:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 33,766
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Originally Posted by ou812
I
You don't have to take anyone's advice, it's your build but I HIGHLY recommend you re think your fuel.
iagree
Until you've gone through sorting out a blown pump gas motor don't take every thing you hear for the absolute truth for your build twocents
I dyno tested at 484 C.I. gen 2 hemi motor with a 10.71 Littlefield roots blower with two custom built 1050 Dominator for this blower motor, from The Carb Shop. That motor made 7.0 lbs. of boost at 7300 RPM with 12% under drive on CA pump swill with 33 degrees total timing made 927 HP, we switch the fuel to 112 octane race gas and we reverse the pulleys to make 12.0 Lbs. at 6500 RPM with 25 degrees total timing before that motor went into detonation shock whiney
It was making 1024 HP before going into detonation work
Based on that testing, the manifold air temps went from 130F with 7.0 lbs. of boost to 190 F with 12.0 lbs. of boost probably causing the detonation,, there is no way I would try using any pump swill above 9.5 lbs. of boost with a EFI motor that had knock sensors on it to prevent me from hurting the motor from detonation accidentily work
We stop testing there as his car wouldn't hook 800 HP, let alone above that work
BTW, intercooling is your friend on detonation prevention scope up
Be careful of what your going for work


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Cab_Burge] #2717305
11/18/19 07:51 PM
11/18/19 07:51 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 10,823
Taxes R-US, NY
Dragula Offline OP
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Dragula  Offline OP
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Well my engine builder and I have been having some very interesting conversations on this build. He is an old school pulling truck guy. We agree, detonation on pump gas is what will know will knock the bottom end out of this build......So in the interest of allowing a bigger tuning window, we are considering dropping to 8.5:1........

As far as E85 goes, I could go that route as it is available near me.....My issue, my carb guy doesn't do E85, or blow thru.....So that leaves me with a big problem and I will need to find a carb shop I can work with. EFI is not an option due to rules. These things don't tune themselves. Thumper has been great at helping me dial in my junk over the years. I will get back to you all on that one.....I need to research more, because I think your right as far as tuning goes, the E85 has a bigger window and I don't need an intercooler, but also because I do not have the room for a bigger radiator and making this kind of hp on my tiny bracket setup may not be all that cool in +90 heat....My fuel pump is good to go already upgraded that this past summer....

https://www.e85carbs.com/BlowthroughE85.htm

Here is my one other big problem with E85, what engine oil do I have to run. I was told Brad Penn turns to jello using that fuel. I haven't used anything besides Brad Penn or VR1 since I started racing....

Last edited by Dragula; 11/18/19 07:55 PM.

'71 Duster Pump Gas 512LD 2013 Mod Gas Winner GRS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNMPXgRryws (6.08 at 112mph) (9.60 at +137mph)(+775hp)

'70 Cuda, Plan C....605 Hemi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph)(823hp and still tuning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)
Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2717324
11/18/19 08:41 PM
11/18/19 08:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,769
MI, usa
dvw Online content
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I have a boosted 340 built in the late 80s. I can tell you what I learned about boost and timing. Pistons are expensive. That being said boosted motors don't run anywhere near the same advance as N/A. Once I got the timing under control, same pistons since 1991. E 85 is definitely better. As far as blow thru E85 carb Dizuster uses Eric at Horsepower Innovations. It has been very good.
Doug

Re: BB Mopar and Procharger questions [Re: Dragula] #2717325
11/18/19 08:41 PM
11/18/19 08:41 PM
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I've race my current S/P car using local pump E85 for over six years with no oil problems using Valvoline 5W20WT for three years and then I switch to VR1 10W30WT the last 3 years
I swap motors last winter and continued to use the VR1 10x30 wt. oil, I changed it and filter once due to being a new motor and I wanted to see the oil and filter contents, the oil look really good and I haven't cut the oil filter apart yet realcrazy
BTW, I don't like or use synthetic oils if I don't have to down


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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