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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: CSK] #2715785
11/14/19 04:30 PM
11/14/19 04:30 PM
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Pattison Texas
CSK Offline
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my point is ,the parasitic loss also goes up with more rpm


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715801
11/14/19 05:00 PM
11/14/19 05:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,319
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Online content
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
So you're thinking a 470 w/ the same top end package from your 511 would run faster?


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2715806
11/14/19 05:10 PM
11/14/19 05:10 PM
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Sydney,Australia
tex013 Offline
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sooooo , you go 10.40@129 ?
Mine will go 10.30@129 at nearly 3800lbs
Around the same HP ? What is you sixty,1/8th numbers ?
You better look beyond just the motor . As noted before look at chassis, converter , gearing , tyres .
I am with Brad , if you have no absolute goal you will never be happy at any point
I see no point in throwing $ in the air hoping for results

Tex


New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: tex013] #2715827
11/14/19 06:32 PM
11/14/19 06:32 PM
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Renton Washington
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Triple Threat Offline
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I wont muddy the waters of the engine debate. Just going to add I picked up .3 and 3+ mph once swapping converters from a good custom converter to another. They stalled the same RPM...


-Dustin
67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi
68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2715834
11/14/19 06:54 PM
11/14/19 06:54 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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I dont know about faster, but wouldn't surprise me if the 470 out accelerated the 511. Maybe a better 60 or 1/8. If would be interesting to see an actual experiment like that.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: tex013] #2715836
11/14/19 06:57 PM
11/14/19 06:57 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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The 60 was a 1.45. 1/8 was a 6.66@105 I think. Will have to look at slip.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Triple Threat] #2715846
11/14/19 07:10 PM
11/14/19 07:10 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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Quote
Just going to add I picked up .3 and 3+ mph once swapping converters from a good custom converter to another. They stalled the same RPM...


Oh yeh.
When the converter just isn’t “right”, the car will never run the number.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2715860
11/14/19 07:26 PM
11/14/19 07:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
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Alberta
Wookie316 Offline
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I did spring for the competition porting on my 400 Indy from Wilson. It is a very pretty piece.
Why did I do that? The ultimate goal was to eventually have that manifold sitting on a low deck Indy block.
However I found a deal on a World RB block after I had the porting done on the manifold. So that idea went out the window. Would I spring for manifold porting again? I’m not sure? Like Dwayne says. Lots of ways to spend $ in different ways compared to what it costs for manifold porting.
I don’t regret the porting. I know it helped.
Also on a side note I have changed only a converter before and found 2/10ths and 3MPH before.
The right one makes a world of difference.


1971 Plum Crazy Super Bee. 572 World Aluminum block with a Cope 727 & Dana 4.10 out back. 9.88 @ 138 with a 1.35 60 NA. Dialed back to 10.0’s. 4000 lbs with me in it.
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Wookie316] #2715865
11/14/19 07:39 PM
11/14/19 07:39 PM
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Posts: 8,027
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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Yes, I am aware of that and have been on the phone with Lenny. He pulled the file and said the vert should operate as expected. He offered to loosen, but said once I find other issues and fix in the motor, it might be too loose . Its last on my list as of now, but thanks

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715908
11/14/19 08:51 PM
11/14/19 08:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,457
Sydney,Australia
tex013 Offline
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
The 60 was a 1.45. 1/8 was a 6.66@105 I think. Will have to look at slip.

ok .
good mph to 1/8
my example : 1.448 - 6.536@102.91 - 10.301@129.74
have you videoed your tach on a run ?

Tex


New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: tex013] #2715928
11/14/19 09:32 PM
11/14/19 09:32 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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Yes, I had an in car video going down the track that I posted awhile back.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715936
11/14/19 09:48 PM
11/14/19 09:48 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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The ring pack used and the cylinder wall finish has a lot to do with how much friction the motor has to overcome.
Dave, have you used a torque wrench to measure how much resistance your motor has for break away and rotational torque? If not you might try that scope I have and still do that up
Along those lines think about adding .350 longer stroke to the crankshaft which adds .175 piston and ring travel at the top of the stroke and .175 to the bottom of the stroke which doesn't seem to be a problem on any of the motors I've built, raced and dyno tested shruggy
Theory is one thing, results are another work
My NHRA legal M.W. stocker motor ,4.280x3.750 that had to use 5/64,5/61/3/16 ring package had a lot more friction than my first pump gas 400 block stroker motor (4.375x4.250 had with the 1/16,1/16, 3/16 standard tension oil ring pack had shruggy
The stroker motor made 612 HP at 5500 RPM with a set of mild 906 heads and a six pack intake, the Stocker motor struggle to break 525 HP with two4 barrel carbs and a lot better head work shruggy
I love stroker motors devil hammer up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Cab_Burge] #2715944
11/14/19 10:13 PM
11/14/19 10:13 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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No I havent tried that cab. I used to on my sb. I think it was 13#. It had 1/16 rings and so does this 511.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2716041
11/15/19 10:23 AM
11/15/19 10:23 AM
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Keymar, MD
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I think your looking at the wrong part for your issue. I run low 6.70's at 100 mph in the 1/8 with a 1.45 60ft. If your doing 105 mph your car is pulling good, but not leaving. To be low 10's typically you should be in the mid to high 1.3x 60'. Have you checked your convertor slippage? Is your fuel system up to par for the engine? Figure out how to get your 60' better and I bet you'll find the "lost" ET that your shooting for.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: DusterKid] #2716058
11/15/19 11:01 AM
11/15/19 11:01 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
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My vert slippage is 5.75%. I think a few here got the wrong idea about what I was getting at with the 470 vs 511. My point here was if I were starting fresh and had the option of building a 470 or a 511 for street duty, some track and to just tinker with I think the 470 would hit my goals of 700+hp with less money. From a mechanical stand point, just look at the design of the rotating assembly. The rod angles are better and the piston speed slower for the 470. The longer rod is the big deal here for the most part. With the shorter stroke your cylinders fire quicker behind each other in secession as well which I think would create better flow. It just seems to me it would be a more free spinning engine too. If ya think im wrong, just go over to Rerer&Morrison, they have an article on this subject. As far as CI aways making more power, in my case not so. My 408sb was faster and quicker than my 511.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2716062
11/15/19 11:16 AM
11/15/19 11:16 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Well, my only response to that line of reasoning is this.......

You might be able to get 700hp out of a 470 easier and cheaper than you can from a 511....... but I can’t.

When you dyno tested that 511....... on the same dyno you tested the 408 on....... how much less did it make?

If you changed the rotating assy from the current 511 to a 470...... and changed nothing else....... how much more power would it make?
For less $$$ than the $1675 it would cost to send your intake to Wilson, you could sell your 511 rotating assy and replace it with a 470 rotating assy.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2716075
11/15/19 11:57 AM
11/15/19 11:57 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
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LOL! I'm not that serious about it. I look at Dom's and Andy's 470's and they made or make what seems to be easy power and it doesn't require anything real expensive as far as heads and rockers. My rockers alone cost me $1150 and there not T&D or Jesel. Second thought, maybe my combo would have made 700+hp with RPM heads and a much smaller intake. The big stroker motors need a lot of cylinder head from what I have seen. My next combo will be a 470 with a very good cylinder head expensive or not. I still think its a better machine. Heading to Detroit now. Back later.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2716079
11/15/19 12:06 PM
11/15/19 12:06 PM
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Pattison Texas
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This thread makes me want to start drinking again after 14 years LOL smile


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2716080
11/15/19 12:08 PM
11/15/19 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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As for Rener-Morrison worrying about the efficiency of stroke and rod ratio....... you did see that the smallest BB crate motor they sell is 540ci.

Sooooo, if you bought Victor heads, and put them on a 470....... the rockers are cheaper?

You could have just as easily put heads on your 511 that used cheaper rockers.

A 511 costs zero extra dollars over a 470.

For me it’s really as simple as this........ if one can’t figure out a way to make extra power from the additional 41 cubes..... they’re doing something wrong.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2716086
11/15/19 12:41 PM
11/15/19 12:41 PM
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Pattison Texas
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
As for Rener-Morrison worrying about the efficiency of stroke and rod ratio....... you did see that the smallest BB crate motor they sell is 540ci.

Sooooo, if you bought Victor heads, and put them on a 470....... the rockers are cheaper?

You could have just as easily put heads on your 511 that used cheaper rockers.

A 511 costs zero extra dollars over a 470.

For me it’s really as simple as this........ if one can’t figure out a way to make extra power from the additional 41 cubes..... they’re doing something wrong.




BINGO !!!!!


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

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