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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Thumperdart] #2715683
11/14/19 12:41 PM
11/14/19 12:41 PM
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fast68plymouth Offline
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Yeh....... big motors don’t rev whistling

Yes..... it’s 1005ci........ making solidly over 2hp/ci

FB4697E6-8017-4E96-B4E1-57BC655BEA14.png

68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: second 70] #2715696
11/14/19 01:02 PM
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My mistake, but yeah I forgot about the 302. Another bad ass short stroke motor..

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Thumperdart] #2715698
11/14/19 01:05 PM
11/14/19 01:05 PM
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how come so many 500+ ci motors can't get into the 9.70's?


I take it from your question that all 470’s must be runnng 9.70’s then.

Or at the very least that more 470’s are running 9.70’s or quicker than people with motors that are 500” or bigger.

If the 470 is so much more efficient than the 511, and efficiency is in fact the key to making more power....... then it just stands to reason that keeping it at 400” would be even more efficient....... less friction from better rod ratio....... you’d make even more power!!!


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2715700
11/14/19 01:07 PM
11/14/19 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
I always get a chuckle out the “cubes don’t matter” arguments.

If that were the case, then why is it in pretty much any racing series or class that has a cube limit........basically has the entire field running the max allowed?

Take NHRA Pro Stock.......bump the limit to 550ci.
No one that stayed at 500” would be competitive in a very short amount of time.

Having a combination be more “efficient” isn’t the same thing as making more “power”.

A 470 making 700hp is 1.489hp/ci
A 511 making 735hp is less efficient at 1.438hp/ci....... but it’s still 35hp more.

As for the 4.25 stroke/6.535 thing being some sort of hurdle to overcome........
This is one of their budget friendly combos:
https://www.shafiroff.com/chevy-drag-race-engine-sportsman/565-big-block-drag-race.php

Here’s another one....... more hp, more rpm...... same stroke and rod length:
https://www.shafiroff.com/chevy-drag-race-engine-pro/565-big-block-drag-race.ph

The rod ratio for a 6.535 rod and a 4.25 stroke is 1.53....... same as a stock 454 or 502 Chevy.

Shafiroff also sells a 440” small block with a 6.00 rod and a 4.00 crank, which has a slightly poorer rod ratio of 1.50...... that one makes 950hp.
Peak tq @6800....... peak hp @8100.


Have you found that the same cubic inches with a lesser r/s ratio require more cylinder head flow and/or more cam timing to peak at the same rpm?

Last edited by Harry's Taxi 2; 11/14/19 01:08 PM.

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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2715702
11/14/19 01:10 PM
11/14/19 01:10 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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I wouldn't say long stroke motors cant rev . We know otherwise. It just seems short stroke motors can do it with ease. The problem with the parasitic losses in the longer stroke motors is that they cant be seen and cant be measured, so some dont believe they are there. There is an article over on Rerer&Morrison about this and I have no reason to not believe it .

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Harry's Taxi 2] #2715709
11/14/19 01:15 PM
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Look at it in the most simple of terms......

440 vs 383.
Both running 10:1 Cr, ootb rpm heads, rpm intake manifold, 850 carb, 1-7/8” headers, MP 509 cam, same rockers.

Which wins that battle on the dyno and at the track in a 3500lb street/strip car?


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2715711
11/14/19 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Look at it in the most simple of terms......

440 vs 383.
Both running 10:1 Cr, ootb rpm heads, rpm intake manifold, 850 carb, 1-7/8” headers, MP 509 cam, same rockers.

Which wins that battle on the dyno and at the track in a 3500lb street/strip car?
whistling stirthepot devil
KISS work

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/14/19 01:20 PM.

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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Cab_Burge] #2715717
11/14/19 01:35 PM
11/14/19 01:35 PM
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I was just thinking I should take 3/4" of stroke out of my motor so I can go faster next year. grin


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'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
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'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2715721
11/14/19 01:42 PM
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No sir and as we know some people can screw up anything but I've beat bigger motors a lot and power adder cars on the street easy so it boils down to the COMPLETE combo. But, top fuel 330+ mph and only 500 cubes.................What's up with that........


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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2715732
11/14/19 02:01 PM
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I understand, but in all fairness the 440 has a bigger bore allowing the 440 to breath better.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2715734
11/14/19 02:03 PM
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LOL!

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Thumperdart] #2715739
11/14/19 02:15 PM
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Yeah, the issue with this conversation is the possible parasitic loss cant be measured , cant be seen. No way to prove it either way. I just look at it from a mechanical common sense view point. I remember when I build my motor and the pan was still off, I noticed how bad the rods were layed over when the piston was at BDC. I would sure think there would be alot of friction with the piston side loaded like that . Just think how bad that would be at 7000rpm or even 6000rpm. sure seems like that would create alot of friction dragging things down a bit. Either way, it cant be a good thing.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715741
11/14/19 02:23 PM
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Just shooting from the hip here, but I'd imagine the power curve on the 512 you built is a bit different than the small block you were running.
I guess a dyno session could maybe shed some light on that, but anyways, maybe you need to make a few changes to the car to get it down the track a little faster...maybe take better advantage of the torque from the 512...
Gearing and/or the converter?

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: krautrock] #2715753
11/14/19 03:18 PM
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I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if there is 2 tenths or more left in the car. I'm working on that as well. Double adjusts for the front as a start. Next time I go to the track the car will be in race trim. I guess a 10.20 is the new goal and a tunnel ram will happen regardless of results. There is another example, my 408 with 4" stroke and 4" bore ran a best of 10.38@131 mph. This 511 with 4.25 stroke ran a best of 10.40@129.75. So more cubic inches are not always a win win and I have seen a few of Millers w8 motors put a big block to shame.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715760
11/14/19 03:31 PM
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Yeah, the issue with this conversation is the possible parasitic loss cant be measured


It can’t?


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Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715764
11/14/19 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
I understand, but in all fairness the 440 has a bigger bore allowing the 440 to breath better.


No problem...... 426 vs 383. Same bore and the 383 has the higher rod ratio.

Or better yet..... 383 vs a 383 stroked to 442(4.25 bore x 3.90 stroke).

383 rod ratio = 1.88
442 rod ratio = 1.71

Same scenario...... 10:1, rpm heads, rpm intake, 1-7/8 headers, 509 cam, 850 carb........ which wins that battle?

Not only will the bigger motor make more power...... I’m thinking the difference in power will be at least what the difference in the cubes is.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Thumperdart] #2715766
11/14/19 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Thumperdart
No sir and as we know some people can screw up anything but I've beat bigger motors a lot and power adder cars on the street easy so it boils down to the COMPLETE combo. But, top fuel 330+ mph and only 500 cubes.................What's up with that........

Top Fuel motors use a smaller bore with a longer stroke than the same C.I. motor that Pro Stock use, two different motors with the same C.I. rules but not in the same world are they work
H.D. Diesel ruck motors use a lot longer stroke than bore also, correct work As well as inline 6 cyl. instead of V8 also shruggy
Apples to apples and dust to dust grin stirthepot


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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2715775
11/14/19 04:14 PM
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I can agree with that. I would never say longer stroker motors are a bad thing. I think they all have there place and if we could remove the paracidic drag that they create as you go up in stroke, how much would there be to gain. who knows, just something to think about

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Cab_Burge] #2715778
11/14/19 04:19 PM
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Sure, theres alot of true here, but top fuel motors burn crazy fuel that equivalent to liquid dynamite or worse. In my case with what I use these motors for, I think the 470 would of been the better pic . It may not be for everybody. My 511 would make a great combo for a mild roadrunner imo.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715782
11/14/19 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
I can agree with that. I would never say longer stroker motors are a bad thing. I think they all have there place and if we could remove the paracidic drag that they create as you go up in stroke, how much would there be to gain. who knows, just something to think about



Think about this Mopar dave, all things the same except the stroke , the smaller 470 cid has to turn more RPM than a 512 to make the same HP, more RPM is ALSO more friction per minute

Last edited by csk; 11/14/19 04:26 PM.

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