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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: BradH] #2715357
11/13/19 09:35 AM
11/13/19 09:35 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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Chad also has a cnc program for the Victor heads that supposedly gets them into the 400cfm range.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: BradH] #2715359
11/13/19 09:46 AM
11/13/19 09:46 AM
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flint michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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Thanks for the tip Brad. I know nothing about Chad. I will look into that.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715365
11/13/19 10:09 AM
11/13/19 10:09 AM
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ohio
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67mprfan Offline
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
Nice combo. 13:1 and a solid roller does alot for your combo imo. Still wish I would have built a 470.



Dave we can trade motors my rotating assembly is at the machine shop now (good luck you'll find the missing piece)


71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it.
67 Belvedere a work in progress
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: 67mprfan] #2715409
11/13/19 11:50 AM
11/13/19 11:50 AM
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flint michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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I dont think you would want my motor. It has 1 thin cylinder. I filled the block to within 3" of the deck per Best Machine advise to better support that cylinder. No issues yet. I have another 77' block that will one day be a 470 with much better heads than I have now.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715421
11/13/19 12:08 PM
11/13/19 12:08 PM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
... Still wish I would have built a 470.

That makes no sense to me. Everything you're trying to do should be easier w/ more cubes.

I can't count the # of times over the years that Dwayne & Andy have said (in effect, if not exactly) that it would have all come together for me much more easily if I'd stuffed in more cubes, rather than continuing to push a stock-stroke N/A 440 closer to its streetable limits.

Never have I claimed to be a quick learner.


That's it! No more Mr. Nice G-... Oh, look at the at adorable puppy! Come here little guy! Want me to scratch you behind your floppy little ears? I love puppies, they're SO CUTE! Bye-bye little fuzz ball!

Now, what was I saying?
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: BradH] #2715435
11/13/19 12:42 PM
11/13/19 12:42 PM
Joined: May 2005
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ohio
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67mprfan Offline
super stock
67mprfan  Offline
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ohio
Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by mopar dave
... Still wish I would have built a 470.

That makes no sense to me. Everything you're trying to do should be easier w/ more cubes.

I can't count the # of times over the years that Dwayne & Andy have said (in effect, if not exactly) that it would have all come together for me much more easily if I'd stuffed in more cubes, rather than continuing to push a stock-stroke N/A 440 closer to its streetable limits.

Never have I claimed to be a quick learner.


When I bought my Molnar crank last year black Friday sale at Mancini. I talked myself out of the 4.250 crank because I told myself to be conservative and not push a stock block. Like Dave I also have a E.T goal and still want street drive ablilty...Appt of good knowledge on this site Thanks everyone for sharing

Last edited by 67mprfan; 11/13/19 12:44 PM.

71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it.
67 Belvedere a work in progress
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: 67mprfan] #2715439
11/13/19 01:00 PM
11/13/19 01:00 PM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Originally Posted by 67mprfan
... Like Dave I also have a E.T goal and still want street drive ablilty...

So do I: 10.0s at about 3800 #s w/ a stock-stroke 440-based build on pump gas... mostly. whistling

Achievable? Guess you'll all have to keep watching the (lack of?) progress reports. shruggy


That's it! No more Mr. Nice G-... Oh, look at the at adorable puppy! Come here little guy! Want me to scratch you behind your floppy little ears? I love puppies, they're SO CUTE! Bye-bye little fuzz ball!

Now, what was I saying?
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: BradH] #2715441
11/13/19 01:31 PM
11/13/19 01:31 PM
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flint michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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I'm not in that camp more cubes the better. A 470 will out accelerate a 511 due to friction. Longer stroke, faster piston speed etc. I had a similar deal with my sb. I wanted a 3.79 stroke and everyone said more cubes the better. So I went 4". I have seen more bad ass 3.79 stroke combos than 4". I think the shorter strokes make it easier to get to you goal. Not saying longer strokes dont work, do get me wrong. This is just my opinion and what I have seen.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715520
11/13/19 07:45 PM
11/13/19 07:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
I'm not in that camp more cubes the better. A 470 will out accelerate a 511 due to friction. Longer stroke, faster piston speed etc. I had a similar deal with my sb. I wanted a 3.79 stroke and everyone said more cubes the better. So I went 4". I have seen more bad ass 3.79 stroke combos than 4". I think the shorter strokes make it easier to get to you goal. Not saying longer strokes dont work, do get me wrong. This is just my opinion and what I have seen.

Some myths get repeated, some get rejected as wrong, if your talking about similar prepared street and strip motors with the same compression carb size, cam, heads, exhaust, tune up, chassis, tires and so on in the same car with all the same parts a 4.250 stroke 400 or 440 block will outrun a 3.91 stroke every day of the year twocents
Been there done that whiney
The only combo stroke I haven't used yet for a good drag race motor is 4.00 stroke with a 4.500 bore or so, maybe soon luck
Torque moves the mass, not HP work


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Cab_Burge] #2715554
11/13/19 09:03 PM
11/13/19 09:03 PM
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flint michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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If torque is the name of the game, then why are racers not building 6" stroke motors with 2" bores? I dont disagree that longer stroke motors make more torque every thing being equal. I just believe the parasitic loses with the longer stroke cancel out some of that extra torque. Higher piston speeds and bad rod angles create friction. I have see more bad ass short stroke big bore motors than square motors. Just look at Doms 470 for example. Nothing real fancy mild roller with rpm heads and it makes more power than any 511 I have seen. I believe he's making way over 700hp with that. Andys 470 was a bad ass compared to his 512. One other thing, short stroke spins higher and rpm is hp. Pro stock runs short stoke motors, under 4", 3.6 I believe, but they do have other reasons for that, CI limited.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715574
11/13/19 10:19 PM
11/13/19 10:19 PM
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Posts: 26,338
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Oregon
Too long of a stroke can cause some issues but a 4.250 stroke in an RB engine with 7.100 long rods isn't going to be a problem. That is actually still a really decent rod to stroke ratio. I know what you're trying to say but I don't think that is the issue with your engine. There shouldn't be any issue making 700+ hp with a low deck 512.

My 512 and my 470 were two totally different engines. The 470 was designed to push the pump gas envelope as far as I could given my budget. I pushed it almost to 800 hp with OOTB heads which I thought was pretty good. My 512 is a street driver with a hyd roller cam so of course it doesn't make the same amount of power.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: AndyF] #2715584
11/13/19 10:33 PM
11/13/19 10:33 PM
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flint michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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I can agree with that. Just like a 470 with the 3.91 stroke and a 7 rod. My 511 with the 4.25 stroke and 6.535 rod would have quite a bit of friction or parasitic losses at 7000rpm compared to the 470 at the same 7000rpm. So would those loses cancel out 100% of what was gained with the longer stroke? I dont know, but I'm sure it would eat up some of it.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715610
11/14/19 12:56 AM
11/14/19 12:56 AM
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Oregon
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If I'm building an engine for power then I always use the longest rod that will fit. I know that a lot of experts say that rod length doesn't matter but I prefer to use the longest one that works. The EMC engines went the other way on this starting a few years back but they operate under totally different rules so it makes sense for them. In either case I don't think rod length is the issue with your engine. A 511 low deck with 6.535 rods doesn't have the greatest R/S ratio in the world, but it still shouldn't have any issue hammering out 700+ hp.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: AndyF] #2715632
11/14/19 08:20 AM
11/14/19 08:20 AM
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flint michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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I agree with you Andy. My issue is somewhere in the induction system. I'm just saying a 470 is a more efficient running engine than a 511 at rpm imo. Here's some bad ass short stroke motors from the factory. The 340 was a bad ass, 3.4 stroke and 4" bore, 426 hemi with a 3.75 stroke and large bore, 440 with 3.75 stroke and large bore, the 327 chevy with 3" stroke and 4" bore, the 396 chevy with 3.75 stroke and large bore, the 427 chevy with 3.75 stroke and large bore just to list a few. The big 3 built short stroke large bore motors for a reason. The 470 mopar is just a better designed motor to hit you goals easier with less money imo. They don't need big expensive heads and big headers etc to get there. I have not seen a 511/512 build up that really impressed me. I have seen several 470's that were quite impressive. I could be way off base here, but someone show me an impressive 511/512 build that was built with rpm heads or something similar and made big power, 750+ horse power. From what I have seen 511/512 builds make about the same as a 470, so why piss with all the bound up friction and parasitic losses when you could build a 470 and have a more free running engine that's less likely to throw a rod or break your block? They rev quicker and accelerate faster"per Rerer and Morrison" than a longer stroke motor. A 470 is still in my future.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715651
11/14/19 09:37 AM
11/14/19 09:37 AM
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
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Combination, combination, combination...

Did I mention it's all about the combination?

You know you currently have a mismatched combination. You can:
- do nothing but tune what you have the best you can (0 - $),
- or Band-Aid your areas of concern ($-$$),
- or sh!t-can everything you suspect doesn't work w/ the combination and start over from some point in the build ($$$-$$$$).

Let's say you get it dialed in well w/ the current combination and it's running consistent 10.4s. How much are you willing to pay for each additional tenth in ET reduction?

Let's say you spend $1000 - $1500 on it and it drops into the 10.3s. Are you willing to call it good enough?

Let's say you spend $3500 - $4500 and it runs 10.0s in normal conditions and has the potential to dip into the 9.9s under really good conditions. That's around $1000 per .1 in ET reduction. Are you "done"? And was it worth it?

I don't know your budget, your REALISTIC goals, your STRETCH goals, or what your current plan is. What I do know is you have taken ME and raised the neurotic level up a couple of notches.... well, maybe only one notch... well, maybe not any notches, but you've gone more public with it. laugh2

We've discussed your build in public; we've taken it offline to multiple PMs; and I'm not sure you're any clearer re the above than you were the first time you posted about the engine not meeting your expectations.

I REALLY want to see YOUR stuff run well. I REALLY want MY stuff to run well, too. At some point, there has to be a definitive "It Is What It Is" point, though.

For ME, a 10.0 ET is as fast as my car will ever be legal to run (STRETCH GOAL). And I have a definite capped budget which, to be embarrassingly & publically honest, I haven't managed well. << ANYBODY NOTICE THAT I HAVE 2 NICE CARBS AND SOME SWEET VALVE TRAIN PARTS FOR SALE? >> Based on all the paper data -- an no empirical data, unfortunately -- my REALISTIC goal is 10.2s, with possibility of dipping into the 10-teens on really good days.

I think it's time for YOU to lock down something in terms of budget, plan, expectations, etc. It doesn't have to be public knowledge, but it's gotta be something you can put down on paper and say to yourself: "Yeah, I can live with this."

BTW, the LAST thing I'd change w/ what you have now, unless it's really not mechanically sound, is your current short block. I think your 470 vs 512 philosophy is fundamentally flawed, but will leave it at that.

That's everything that I can offer. shruggy


That's it! No more Mr. Nice G-... Oh, look at the at adorable puppy! Come here little guy! Want me to scratch you behind your floppy little ears? I love puppies, they're SO CUTE! Bye-bye little fuzz ball!

Now, what was I saying?
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: BradH] #2715654
11/14/19 09:59 AM
11/14/19 09:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,505
So. Burlington, Vt.
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I always get a chuckle out the “cubes don’t matter” arguments.

If that were the case, then why is it in pretty much any racing series or class that has a cube limit........basically has the entire field running the max allowed?

Take NHRA Pro Stock.......bump the limit to 550ci.
No one that stayed at 500” would be competitive in a very short amount of time.

Having a combination be more “efficient” isn’t the same thing as making more “power”.

A 470 making 700hp is 1.489hp/ci
A 511 making 735hp is less efficient at 1.438hp/ci....... but it’s still 35hp more.

As for the 4.25 stroke/6.535 thing being some sort of hurdle to overcome........
This is one of their budget friendly combos:
https://www.shafiroff.com/chevy-drag-race-engine-sportsman/565-big-block-drag-race.php

Here’s another one....... more hp, more rpm...... same stroke and rod length:
https://www.shafiroff.com/chevy-drag-race-engine-pro/565-big-block-drag-race.ph

The rod ratio for a 6.535 rod and a 4.25 stroke is 1.53....... same as a stock 454 or 502 Chevy.

Shafiroff also sells a 440” small block with a 6.00 rod and a 4.00 crank, which has a slightly poorer rod ratio of 1.50...... that one makes 950hp.
Peak tq @6800....... peak hp @8100.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: BradH] #2715667
11/14/19 10:44 AM
11/14/19 10:44 AM
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Posts: 6,397
flint michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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Yes, I do get it. I agree, combination is key. When I drew this up in the planning stages I thought my combo would be a good one. I'm on a constant learning curve here as we all are. I appreciate and respect all of you guys comments and opinions. Some here do this stuff everyday as a job and some as a hobby. You are the ones that really know what works and what dont and I understand that and hope to learn some of this stuff from you. Some here, as I, do this as a hobby and past time, so we learn as we go because we dont do this everyday. I welcome and respect all opinions here. I think i have mine figured out and it should run much stronger next season, so will see. Compression and a solid roller will make it run as it should.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: fast68plymouth] #2715670
11/14/19 10:57 AM
11/14/19 10:57 AM
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flint michigan
mopar dave Offline OP
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That puts things into perspective. This is what I like to sharpen my teeth on and well put Dwayne. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree here. I dont disagree on more cubes make more power, no doubt about that, but I'm not totally onboard with longer stroke being a win win situation for every combo. I have never seen a 502 that was impressive either. Still learning.

Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: mopar dave] #2715671
11/14/19 10:58 AM
11/14/19 10:58 AM
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central il.
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second 70 Offline
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Dave a 327 was a 4" bore by 3.250 stroke the 302 was a 4" by 3.00 stroke which was really just a 350 block with a 283 crank with the compression raised to 11 to 1.

Last edited by second 70; 11/14/19 11:02 AM.
Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results [Re: Cab_Burge] #2715674
11/14/19 11:17 AM
11/14/19 11:17 AM
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Posts: 19,022
State of confusion
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Then how come so many 500+ ci motors can't get into the 9.70's? I have LOTS of customers that wish they were faster but run much slower than my lowly 470 and they have real heads and max wedge ports with much more volume compared to my rpm's. There has to be something said about short strokes and rpm's and one guy I did a pr. of super trick 850's with BLP NASCAR thinned blades and shafts goes 5.20's so far at 331 cubes and he shifts at 9700+ rpm's.......One thing I think helps some cars especially traction/tire limited stuff is not torque but the ability to rev the snot out of em and not have em hit the tires so hard that they spin off the line........

Last edited by Thumperdart; 11/14/19 07:09 PM.

72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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