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Just confirming pinion angle please guru's #2160647
09/24/16 02:59 AM
09/24/16 02:59 AM
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crash520 Offline OP
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I've now put my D60 I put together in the Cuda and just want you guys to cast your eye over the angles please, below is what I now have, basically the pinion angle is 3.7* nose down compared to the engine center line. Most all drawings indicate the driveshaft points down from the trans, on these Cuda's it actually points up and in my case 2.7* and from there my pinion is 1.0* to the driveshaft totaling 3.7*



its a leaf spring car, new 3 1/2" balanced driveshaft with 1350 joints and so on. At speed on the interstate Im getting some vibration, only small but its there, I didn't have it before I changed the diff over and went from a 3.23 ratio to now a 3.73, wheels and tires are still the same, only new diff and driveshaft.

Greg

Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2160668
09/24/16 05:21 AM
09/24/16 05:21 AM
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jbc426 Offline
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I'm far from a guru, but I can regurgitate what Dr Diff taught me.

First though, confirm the centerline of the pinion shaft is at a -3.7* nose down angle in relation to the crankshaft/trans centerline measured at 0*?

What traction control device are you running, if any: Pinion snubber, Caltracs or slapper bars?


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2160677
09/24/16 06:37 AM
09/24/16 06:37 AM
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crash520 Offline OP
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JBC,

Absolutely can confirm the pinion is nose down 3.7* compared to the crank/trans centerline.

No traction control at this point however Im thinking I will be heading down the caltrac path very soon (slapper bars in Australia are a cop magnet), right now is a stock 340, soon to be a W2 408, its predominantly a street car and the diff is a truck diff so no provision for pinion snubber (not without a fair bit of effort), Im not overly excited to screw a snubber to the underside of the floor either

Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2160688
09/24/16 08:57 AM
09/24/16 08:57 AM
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ruderunner Offline
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With what you have now vibration is likely. Driveshaft u joint angles should be equal but opposite. Or said simply, to alleviate vibration you should turn the pinion up (to zero) or figure out how to raise the tailshaft of the trans.

Is the car lowered? Bringing up rear ride height can help the angle between trans and driveshaft.

You are correct on wanting the pinion to point down as it will rotate up under load, how much depends on lots of variables though. But its not gonna happen without some vibration or other changes.


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Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: ruderunner] #2160772
09/24/16 12:07 PM
09/24/16 12:07 PM
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one other item to consider. at what rpm was the driveshaft balanced at ? it is common for driveshafts to be made correctly, but balanced at a too low of an rpm. when running a deep gear, or an overdrive, the driveshaft is turning a higher speed than you may think. if it has not been balanced at that higher speed, vibration more than likely will result.
beer

Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2160813
09/24/16 01:05 PM
09/24/16 01:05 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Just me I would remeasure & use horizontle as a baseline rather than engine/trans CL & you want minimal angles & as said for them to be opposite so for instance if the trans output shaft angle is 1.5 one way then you would want the pinion to be 1.5 the other way (parallel but in different planes) plus a bit more down from that cuz of the rise on accell, maybe 1-2 more depending on the app


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Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2160818
09/24/16 01:13 PM
09/24/16 01:13 PM
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Centerline Offline
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This is the best guide to setting up the driveline angles for a street driven vehicle I've ever found. These guys are very knowledgeable. I've used their procedures on every car I've ever setup and never had a vibration problem.

Power Train Angles


Centerline
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Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2160822
09/24/16 01:18 PM
09/24/16 01:18 PM
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lockjaw-express Offline
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I would think 3-4 degrees more down angle, for a total of 6.6 to 7.6 degree down. In race applications I have gone as far as 10* down angle...

Is the vibration at a certain speed/rpm, and what is the gear ratio?

If it were me, I would send your picture to Inland Empire for their suggestions.

Regards, Mark

Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2160833
09/24/16 01:44 PM
09/24/16 01:44 PM
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You are correct in the way you have set the pinion angle in relation to the transmission. The problem is that the ujoint angles at rest are too close to zero. So angling the pinion down 3.7 degrees puts the ujoint angles at odds with each other at cruising speed, but then under full throttle , the pinion will rise and swing the rear joint past zero degrees into the proper angle.
I would raise the rear of the transmission and lower the pinion, or lower the trans and raise the pinion, whichever is more practical.
This video helps explain it.


http://youtu.be/Idk3BVDVHq4


Good luck. Joel


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Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2160836
09/24/16 01:48 PM
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Magnum Offline
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Small and matching angles are the goal for a smooth set up.

Big angles at the pinion end are to roĺl close to zero for leaf spring cars. The more control you have on spring wid up, the less angle is required. Cal tracs do not require big angles like 4-10.

1-2 deg and effort to control wind up is the solution.


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Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: Centerline] #2160841
09/24/16 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted By Centerline
This is the best guide to setting up the driveline angles for a street driven vehicle I've ever found. These guys are very knowledgeable. I've used their procedures on every car I've ever setup and never had a vibration problem.

Power Train Angles


Excellent! iagree

Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: Centerline] #2161010
09/24/16 07:53 PM
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crash520 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Centerline
This is the best guide to setting up the driveline angles for a street driven vehicle I've ever found. These guys are very knowledgeable. I've used their procedures on every car I've ever setup and never had a vibration problem.

Power Train Angles


this all makes sense however its application primarily is around a linked hot rod rear end, I have leaf springs so wind up has to be taken into account. The vibration is at high speed cruising and its slight, I think I'll raise the trans a smidge at this pint. I will be running street slicks and hitting the 1/4 and 1/8 mile semi regularly with this car so I will need traction control but with good street manners as such

Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2161014
09/24/16 07:57 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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I ain't saying it is (these), but ring/pinion gear whine and driveshaft balance/ujoint issues are distinct possibilities. I have had both of em (seperately) at high speed cruise making that noise. not sure about axle bearings being possible


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Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2161029
09/24/16 08:23 PM
09/24/16 08:23 PM
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crash520 Offline OP
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RR, I hear what you are saying for sure, the car is not lowered to answer a previous question, that said, I do have a crappy set of gears in it, they are a new set of motive 3.73, done 200 miles the whine is getting slightly better however at a specific speed approx 45-50 very briefly on acceleration and coast its horrific and I can feel the frequency thru the floor so those damn things are getting pulled and Im ordering as set of spicer 3.73's, mesh is spot on per Dr Diff, I had the back lash set at .008" and took it out to 0.012 but that made no difference.
as indicated, right now I'll raise the trans a little to balance the Uni angles (this will also get my collector flanges up a little higher).
And then I need some traction control device, i will need to control spring wind up for sure

Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2161053
09/24/16 09:20 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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post what it ends up being


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Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: RapidRobert] #2708731
10/21/19 12:43 AM
10/21/19 12:43 AM
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crash520 Offline OP
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rapid robert,

I've re checked using the ground as horizontal, the crankshaft is now 1.9 down, driveshaft is parallel to the ground and the pinion is .8 down. I had added 2* to bring the pinion up to its now .8 and added 3/8" spacer under the trans mount to get it to its now 1.9 down. Under WOT I cant detect any vibration, deceleration I cant detect any either, however at 60mph cruise speed there is a slight vibration. I also now have Caltracs fitted.

Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2708736
10/21/19 02:19 AM
10/21/19 02:19 AM
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I like to see between 3 to 5 degrees different on the pinion flange angle and the driveshaft in a V looking from the side, if the pinion flange is right at 90 degrees on a angle finder and the driveshaft is 3 degree difference up towards the tranny I'm good on street or strip only automatic tranny cars, on 4 speed cars I add another 2 to 3 degrees difference. You do not watn the pinion angle pointed up towards the tranny with no difference in angle on the drive shaft and pinion shaft angle sitting still with no load tsk
On the front U joint if there is any difference at all on the angle of the driveshaft and tranny yoke, left ,right, up or down I'm good up up twocents


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: crash520] #2708737
10/21/19 02:22 AM
10/21/19 02:22 AM
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Put it up on 4 jack stands and have some one run the throttle to get it up to 60 MPH in high gear at light throttle pressure and see if you can see any run out on any of the parts, drive shaft, wheels or tires out of round scope
Let us know what you find, mate grin


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Just confirming pinion angle please guru's [Re: Cab_Burge] #2708745
10/21/19 06:59 AM
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crash520 Offline OP
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Thanks Cab, I’m thinking now I’ve lifted the rear of the engine maybe I take the 2* wedges back out of the Diff to point the pinion down a little more, right now sitting the Diff to driveshaft is less than one degree and try it, I have it on a four post lift so I can easily put the Diff on stands and run it







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