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Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,2update, new motor combo #2707166
10/16/19 04:31 AM
10/16/19 04:31 AM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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I finally got the 528 apart. Found some issues. #6 Jesel intake lash loose by .003, the paired rocker shaft was chewed up on the pushrod side of the offset rocker. The whole valvetrain will come apart AGAIN down to the individual rockers for inspection with a jewellers loop to look for anything getting ready to fail. Last outing the bypass in the oilpump stuck and i had had trouble pulling a prime with the Milodon five lobe extra volume pump. I use a single pickup and had capped the other intake port. That left a cavity of .590 x 4 inch plus the transfer slot on the unused side of the pump. I am going to fill it with a 9/16 × 4 inch piece of rod to see if that will eliminate the problem with poor/no priming.
The bearings were hurt. Mains not so bad, coating wore off on some and a few scratches. Rods were in tough shape with some serious smearing of bearing material on some. Crank had scratches on the rod throws, mains look good but maybe could use a polish.
So with having to regrind the rod journals i plan to offset grind them to 2.10 from 2.375 for a stroke of 4.400 to 4.410 for an added 32 cubes, bringing the motor out to 560 from 528. The rods will be changed to BME aluminum 6.815 c to c, .990 pins. Pistons are going to Line 2Line for coating. The cylinder bores need a rehone and will probably be out .002 or .003 oversize to get them cleaned up. The old rods were Manley Hbeam 6.965 long, 910 grams each. Going to aluminum and the 2.100 bearings ought to lighten things up a bit.
I am hoping to pick up .10 to .15 with the new combo. The 440-1 heads had been fully ported (years ago) with an intake volume of 365cc, 2.300 intake valves installed, alky injection and a 3x indy intake. The cam is a Jones Cams with 85510 intake lobes, .510 lobe lift, 284 dur @ .050. Exhaust are 85480 lobes with 296 @ .050 and .480 lobes, LSA is 114. Net lifts are about .850 and .800 . Both sides have 1.70 ratio rockers. Opinions on what this added 32 cubes may do for me appreciated! So thats the story. I hope to get it out by mid May next spring provided the snow is gone!!

Last edited by gregsdart; 11/19/19 03:21 PM.

8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2707203
10/16/19 09:30 AM
10/16/19 09:30 AM
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J_BODY Offline
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Ambitious as always Greg..... it’ll be interesting to see what the added cubes will do. Perhaps more power at a slightly lower rpm?

Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: J_BODY] #2707214
10/16/19 09:53 AM
10/16/19 09:53 AM
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gregsdart Offline OP
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Originally Posted by J_BODY
Ambitious as always Greg..... it’ll be interesting to see what the added cubes will do. Perhaps more power at a slightly lower rpm?

That is what i am hoping for all though i hope it will carry the same hp up top as it did at 528 inches. I trap at 7300 now, hope another 100 rpm won't be too much strain on stuff.


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2707222
10/16/19 10:16 AM
10/16/19 10:16 AM
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pittsburghracer Online work
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Online Work
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Thoughts? I wish I had your get up and go but I’m glad I don’t have your desire to build oddball combos. Being you aren’t a heads up Racer it just seems to me that you took what was a reliable combo years ago and turned it into something on the raged edge. Sometimes we take the fun right out of the sport


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: pittsburghracer] #2707230
10/16/19 10:51 AM
10/16/19 10:51 AM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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John, i admit it cost me some of the fun, and added frustration. But the rewards were always going a bit faster, and the satisfaction that i was a good part of the builds. I always got a great deal of help hear though, all the way back to 1999? I have had issues with the Jesel stuff from way back in 1999! That was on a 499 lowdeck build, and did go rounds for awhile but the poor k1000h springs started to kill rocker bearings, and i broke a few of those springs. I went to Comp 947 springs and picked up .08 in the 1/8th mile! On the 528 build I used an Isky RR735 cam, it worked great and made great power. But i had a new cam designed and the lobes were harsh and rocker failures increased. I should have put that Isky cam back in but didn't.
I suspect i should have had the whole set of rocker arms rebuilt when the failures started, but didn't and suffered more failures as a result. I will be 70 this Jan and figure this time around will be my last engine build before i give it up for good, so i am putting extra care into making sure everything is in excellent shape when it goes together, and plan on dynoing it next spring when done. At my race weight of 3040 it takes about 32 hp to go .10 faster, so a tenth would be a good gain. Lets hope.


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2707254
10/16/19 11:55 AM
10/16/19 11:55 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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I’m going in the opposite direction from Greg as I get older.
I want the stuff to require less time and energy from me to keep it going.

I wish you good luck with the build, and as always will be following the results.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: fast68plymouth] #2707333
10/16/19 06:03 PM
10/16/19 06:03 PM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
I’m going in the opposite direction from Greg as I get older.
I want the stuff to require less time and energy from me to keep it going.

I wish you good luck with the build, and as always will be following the results.

Thanks Dwayne. Life is changing for me, i sold my other 65 street Dart and bought a turn key hotrod that I won't have to work on.
A 2019. Mustang GT with 10 speed auto. I know, blasphemy. But that hotrod runs high 11s at 119 bone stock! And it is a ball to drive! So now I just putz with the racecar and hope to run it two or three times a year. The rest of the time i am out cruzin😊😊


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2707531
10/17/19 09:27 AM
10/17/19 09:27 AM
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Sorry to hear about the carnage Greg. Couple things come to mind...may want to talk to crank grinder to see if that amount of offsetting will compromise oiling position on the journals. (shafttech does good work) Next is the new stroke and rod combo packaged to reuse your old pistons?

Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: HardcoreB] #2707687
10/17/19 03:14 PM
10/17/19 03:14 PM
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gregsdart Offline OP
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Hcb, thanks for the tip on the oil passages. I may have to have them welded a touch before grinding? The rods are going to be BME 6.815 ALUMINUM 396 FORGINGS. The pistons will work most likely as Line2Line said they can coat them up to .020 ! I probably only need .002 or .003. I was thinking about the oil holes, and it might be close since the bearings will be sbc width, a fair amount narrower than mopars. I had a set of rods made the same way to go to 4 inch on a stock 440 crank a number of years ago. BME made the rod bodys mopar rod width with the sbc bearings centered. Made a nice 475 inch combo in a 440 block.
The other things i think i need are to upgrade to .180 wall piston pins from .150 and cut some of the dome off the pistons to keep comepression at 15.5 or less. With a 4.41 stroke going 7400 rpm the guy at CpCarrillo suggested it.

Last edited by gregsdart; 10/17/19 03:46 PM.

8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2707816
10/17/19 07:20 PM
10/17/19 07:20 PM
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montana
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I know aluminum is what people run to go faster, but...., in the interest of reliability, wouldn’t a steel rod do the job. Both of my 580 inch motors have steel Oliver’s, and one is shifted at 7400 and one at 7600. I know I sleep better because of it, probly giving up some power. Curious if anyone has a rough idea how much. Jim


64 Dodge Coronet 440. In progress
1998. Dodge Avenger. 8.50@162. 4900 DA
250” Neil and Parks Slip Joint. 7.36@183.
4600 DA
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: BANDIT] #2707827
10/17/19 08:05 PM
10/17/19 08:05 PM
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gregsdart Offline OP
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I like steel rods too, but nobody makes a bigblock rod with a 2.100 bearing. Hence the need for a custom rod.


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: HardcoreB] #2707920
10/18/19 06:50 AM
10/18/19 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by HardcoreB
Couple things come to mind...may want to talk to crank grinder to see if that amount of offsetting will compromise oiling position on the journals.

I woke up with. Ideas spinning in my head about this new build. If i am having custom rods made, then i can have the rod bearing tangs (slots?) Cut to move the bearings off center a touch if needed. The crank is at the engine shop right now so i will have to go measure everything and talk to the crank people and BME.


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2707930
10/18/19 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by gregsdart
The rods are going to be BME 6.815 ALUMINUM 396 FORGINGS... the bearings will be sbc width, ...BME made the rod bodys mopar rod width with the sbc bearings centered...I HAVE THE SAME ROD IN MY 484S/R NOW BUT AT 6.7"...FOR YOUR RPM/POWER LEVEL I'D PROBABLY UPGRADE TO A GRP BECAUSE THE BME '396' FORGING ISN'T AS STRONG.
The other things i think i need are to upgrade to .180 wall piston pins from .150 ...AGREED YOU ARE AT A LEVEL WHERE .185 WALL PINS WILL PROBABLY HELP

Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: HardcoreB] #2707964
10/18/19 09:44 AM
10/18/19 09:44 AM
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I will check out the GRP rods. Looks like they might even be less expensive. On the oil hole locations maybe GRP can offset the bearings a touch if needed. Thanks much to all that contribute to this thread! The help and sugestions keep me from picking the wrong parts, etc and make success much more likely!!!


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2708019
10/18/19 11:18 AM
10/18/19 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by gregsdart
The other things i think i need are to upgrade to .180 wall piston pins from .150 and cut some of the dome off the pistons to keep comepression at 15.5 or less. With a 4.41 stroke going 7400 rpm the guy at CpCarrillo suggested it.
100% for your application. I put 0.185" wall, 0.990" dia pins in my 540 (4.5" dia piston) from Diamond (4130 material). Will be a big help with durability.


1993 Daytona, 1973 Cuda 440, 2009 Challenger 5.7 Hemi, 2015 RAM 1500 5.7 Hemi 8-speed auto
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: 440Jim] #2709041
10/21/19 10:22 PM
10/21/19 10:22 PM
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Talked to my machinist today. The crank is going out for max offset rod journals, from 4.15 to about 4.415. Will be 560 cubes. I talked to GRP rods and they make big block rods with 2.100 rod bearings, and are less than BME by $300! That $300 will more than cover the cost of .180 wall piston pins. Compression will be set at 15/1 or max 15.5/1 depending on the final volumes. So thats the plan. A rehone, coat the pistons at line2line, new low tension rings, valve job freshened and springs checked. I hope to see an honest 880 hp on the dyno!😃

Last edited by gregsdart; 10/21/19 10:22 PM.

8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2709069
10/22/19 03:00 AM
10/22/19 03:00 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Have you thought of using the .043,.043 rings with the 1/16 low tension oil rings? work
if not maybe you should up twocents


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: Cab_Burge] #2709111
10/22/19 09:19 AM
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Cab i am reusing my old pistons. They have .043 top and second, with 3/16 low tension oil rings with a vacuum pump.


8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2717575
11/19/19 03:29 PM
11/19/19 03:29 PM
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Well, I can't go to the 2.100 rod bearing for a stroke increase. Not for the full .275 increase anyway. It would move the rod bearing oul holes too far and thin the inside of the crank throw. So i decided to go with a 2.20 bearing and 4.315 stroke instead. Not quite what i wanted but thats life. It will be interesting to see what these changes will do for power. The cubes will be 550.5.

Last edited by gregsdart; 11/19/19 10:07 PM.

8.77 153 mph best, 3055 lbs 528 indy 440-1 alky
Re: The good, the bad, and the ugly,update, new motor combo [Re: gregsdart] #2717984
11/21/19 01:40 AM
11/21/19 01:40 AM
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N THE ARIZONA STREETS!
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You still amaze me, Greg! Keep at it my friend!

Wes


"Any fool can know. The point is to understand" - A. Einstein
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